Homosexuality in giraffes and other non-human animals

It relies on the naturalistic fallacy which I don't like, but it also shuts down people who make the argument that homosexuality is unnatural and therefore bad, which I do like.

Ultimately, homosexuality in humans is fine not because it's natural, but because we should, by default, let consenting adults do what they want together.

Re: Homosexuality in giraffes and other non-human animals

#5

Post by MatekCopatek » Sat, Mar 23, 2019, 5:39 PM UTC

My go-to link for countering " is unnatural" was [1], this article seems like a great one to add to the arsenal :).

That's not to say I believe human behaviour should somehow be judged by finding equivalents in the animal kingdom (what a silly concept!), it's just fun to point out to someone that even their ridiculous point is technically incorrect.

[1] http://web.archive.org/web/20140723175514/http://www.blaghag...

Re: Homosexuality in giraffes and other non-human animals

#6

Post by have_faith » Sat, Mar 23, 2019, 5:41 PM UTC

fenwick67 wrote: post #4

I am always so torn when people make the argument that homosexuality is natural and therefore okay. It relies on the naturalistic fallacy which I don't like, but it also shuts down people who make the argument that homosexuality is unnatural and therefore bad, which I do like. Ultimately, homosexuality in humans is fine not because it's natural, but because we should, by default, let consenting adults do what they wa…

Exactly, an appeal to nature is not needed. Humans could be the only species ever observed with homosexual traits and it wouldn't make a difference when it comes to matters of whether something is ok or not.

Re: Homosexuality in giraffes and other non-human animals

#7

Post by ec109685 » Sat, Mar 23, 2019, 5:42 PM UTC

4FNET7 wrote: post #3

Technically speaking, the animals he is talking about are bisexual. But this was a truly great article. Please post more like this, queerty.

How do you know they are bisexual?

Re: Homosexuality in giraffes and other non-human animals

#8

Post by _v7gu » Sat, Mar 23, 2019, 5:48 PM UTC

fenwick67 wrote: post #4

I am always so torn when people make the argument that homosexuality is natural and therefore okay. It relies on the naturalistic fallacy which I don't like, but it also shuts down people who make the argument that homosexuality is unnatural and therefore bad, which I do like. Ultimately, homosexuality in humans is fine not because it's natural, but because we should, by default, let consenting adults do what they wa…

I think it's bad, as it opens the door for the "valid" retort of ducks being necrophiliac. Is a fallacious argument the hill we want to die on? I'd rather just support the positives of a liberal approach.

Re: Homosexuality in giraffes and other non-human animals

#9

Post by lisper » Sat, Mar 23, 2019, 5:48 PM UTC

have_faith wrote: post #6

fenwick67 wrote: post #4

I am always so torn when people make the argument that homosexuality is natural and therefore okay. It relies on the naturalistic fallacy which I don't like, but it also shuts down people who make the argument that homosexuality is unnatural and therefore bad, which I do like. Ultimately, homosexuality in humans is fine not because it's natural, but because we should, by default, let consenting adults do what they wa…

Exactly, an appeal to nature is not needed. Humans could be the only species ever observed with homosexual traits and it wouldn't make a difference when it comes to matters of whether something is ok or not.

Neither of you are wrong, but given that this is a political issue as much as it is a [insert your favorite label here] issue, I think it's a mistake to pass up an opportunity to discredit the opposing side's fallacious arguments.

Re: Homosexuality in giraffes and other non-human animals

#10

Post by presscast » Sat, Mar 23, 2019, 5:50 PM UTC

fenwick67 wrote: post #4

I am always so torn when people make the argument that homosexuality is natural and therefore okay. It relies on the naturalistic fallacy which I don't like, but it also shuts down people who make the argument that homosexuality is unnatural and therefore bad, which I do like. Ultimately, homosexuality in humans is fine not because it's natural, but because we should, by default, let consenting adults do what they wa…

I think people are talking past each other when discussing "unnaturalness". Opponents of homosexuality often use the word "unnatural" in the sense of "not in humankind's nature". This is distinct from "unnatural" as "not occurring in nature".

The argument is more like "eating dirt is okay for earthworms, but it's unnatural for humans", so appeal to the behavior of other animals completely misses the point.

This is a profoundly metaphysical debate about the nature of a life well-lived and the nature of a healthy society. Whatever one thinks of it, that's the level on which it ought to be discussed.