It’s a well known fact that as property value rises the yield on rental income decreases. A $180k townhouse can rent for $1600/mo but a $1.8m McMansion isn’t going to rent for $16,000/mo. The economics of this has to do with marginal utility mainly and nothing to do with exploitation . There’s also the calculation of fixed rental costs which derive a larger portion of the monthly payment the lower the payment gets. I…
This exactly! Also upkeep. Replacing a cheap shingle roof vs a metal or Spanish tile roof are night and day in costs. Plumbing is cheaper in a cheap small house with simple layout vs. Sprawling multi-level house. Size of grounds (and expected level care) to maintain are different. It goes on and on, but the gist is that the total net on a cheap house (ie. houses in cheap areas) is going to be more for the same level…
American landlords derive more profit from renters in low-income neighborhoods
91–100 of 173 posts
Re: American landlords derive more profit from renters in low-income neighborhoods
#92Skimming the article, an obvious solution seems to be overlooked. Someone is probably a lot less likely to trash/destroy something they own / are in the process of owning. Imagine if there was far less rental and much more liquid stock of housing units in markets? What if everyone who was renting now could actually "buy" livable housing at that same level of rent; rather than lining the pockets of others?
Re: American landlords derive more profit from renters in low-income neighborhoods
#93Earlier quoted context omitted.
If you had just left the issue alone then everyone would assume his comment was referring to malevolent Christians. As a Jew I find it disappointing that you have chosen to echo the antisemitism he was smart enough to retract from the discourse. These ways of thinking need to be censored and entirely destroyed. Delete your comment immediately.
If you continue to troll HN we will ban you. Please stop posting unsubstantive comments as well. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
Re: American landlords derive more profit from renters in low-income neighborhoods
#94It’s a well known fact that as property value rises the yield on rental income decreases. A $180k townhouse can rent for $1600/mo but a $1.8m McMansion isn’t going to rent for $16,000/mo. The economics of this has to do with marginal utility mainly and nothing to do with exploitation . There’s also the calculation of fixed rental costs which derive a larger portion of the monthly payment the lower the payment gets. I…
This exactly! Also upkeep. Replacing a cheap shingle roof vs a metal or Spanish tile roof are night and day in costs. Plumbing is cheaper in a cheap small house with simple layout vs. Sprawling multi-level house. Size of grounds (and expected level care) to maintain are different. It goes on and on, but the gist is that the total net on a cheap house (ie. houses in cheap areas) is going to be more for the same level…
In low-cost cities, landlord profit rates rise steeply alongside neighborhood poverty. But in expensive cities, the reverse is true. In expensive cities, landlords make money through appreciation and gentrification (which is bad enough for the poor). In lower-cost, more economically hard-hit cities, they make it on the backs of the poor.
If the home value is flat or even falling, then of course the rent will have to be higher to provide the necessary return on capital to bother owning the rental property in the first place!
It’s not like capital is required to be deployed to rental stock in certain proportions. There is whole world of potential investments, and based on their risk and return will have a whole world of dollars competing for them.
Rental units that appreciate fast enough are just held vacant in some markets, so much so that Vancouver had to abundantly tax it to try to stop it.
Rental property appreciation is an absolutely key variable in the profitability calculation. In many markets it totally dominates the equation over the actual rental income figure.
Re: American landlords derive more profit from renters in low-income neighborhoods
#95Skimming the article, an obvious solution seems to be overlooked. Someone is probably a lot less likely to trash/destroy something they own / are in the process of owning. Imagine if there was far less rental and much more liquid stock of housing units in markets? What if everyone who was renting now could actually "buy" livable housing at that same level of rent; rather than lining the pockets of others?
It probably works but the cost (and scalability) can restrict how fast/far it can be applied...
Re: American landlords derive more profit from renters in low-income neighborhoods
#96Ctrl+F "exploit", appears 24 times in this 13-paragraph article. > "Defining exploitation as being overcharged relative to the market value of a property" The ratio they've based their narrative on is called GRM (gross rent multiplier): https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gross_Rent_Multiplier GRM is one of many factors when analyzing investment options. Other important factors include appreciation and expenses (maintena…
Of course they have an agenda, but I think it's much less nefarious than some think -- it's that they think housing insecurity is a major problem in the United States with knock-on effects in education, health, and household wellbeing. Of course it is a complex issue on how to address this — what mixture of regulation and free market solutions best serves people -- and I think the authors land in a position that is m…
The interventions we already have are largely responsible for the problem in the first place. Governments intervene massively to increase the cost of housing as a backdoor give-away to incumbent homeowners.
Doubling down on intervention will not work because there are diametrically opposed requirements—-politicians want high and monotonically increasing home prices but low and stable rents.
Re: American landlords derive more profit from renters in low-income neighborhoods
#97Small scale operation of rental properties may be the most common small business in America, so if one actually believes this thesis then one has an easy option to compete down the differential while feeling good about oneself, with very low capital and expertise requirements. Prior to doing so, I would advise one to ask landlords what their experience has been in the neighborhoods you want to sink $X00k into.
>one has an easy option to compete down the differential while feeling good about oneself Would you really feel good about yourself evicting somebody on to the street who hasn't kept up on their rent because they lost their job at Walmart? It's difficult to argue that it isn't a necessary part of protecting your investment.
Re: American landlords derive more profit from renters in low-income neighborhoods
#98Re: American landlords derive more profit from renters in low-income neighborhoods
#99Earlier quoted context omitted.
>The point is that, according to that narrative, you could be "less evil" than the other landlords. You can afford to "protect your investment" less So, don't kick out people who don't pay their rent immediately? Sounds like a recipe for achieving all of the "acclaim" for being a slumlord with none of the actual profit...
You can’t kick people out immediately if they don’t pay their rent. It’s been awhile so I’ve forgotten all of the terms. In my relatively landlord friendly state, it is a long process. 1. You have to give them a written notice and they have 7 days to pay rent. 2. Then you have to go and file an eviction notice with the court and wait up to another week for them to send a notice to the tenant. 3. Then you have to wait…
On the other hand, some probably do and some probably do take full advantage of their legal rights.
Aggregate margins would probably be a lot thinner if every person being evicted took full advantage of every legal right they had though.
Similarly, the landlords who are straight and honest about the process and don't take advantage of this probably take in lower profits than the ones who don't.
Re: American landlords derive more profit from renters in low-income neighborhoods
#100Earlier quoted context omitted.
>one has an easy option to compete down the differential while feeling good about oneself Would you really feel good about yourself evicting somebody on to the street who hasn't kept up on their rent because they lost their job at Walmart? It's difficult to argue that it isn't a necessary part of protecting your investment.
The point is that, according to that narrative, you could be "less evil" than the other landlords. You can afford to "protect your investment" less than they do and it would still be a "good investment" (just not "an exploitative great investment"). You would be offering a better option and that should be enough to feel good about yourself.
Not a landlord, but know a few - all who do it as a side gig or who started out that way. Everyone tries to be nice up to the point that it makes financial sense.
Say I get into the landlording business as a side. I have a simple equation: I need to make X amount of profit to make the time investment worth it. The alternative is I invest that time in my regular career and try to climb the ladder. If I make less than X a year as a landlord, I should just sell the property and focus on my career.
For people with well paying jobs (e.g. engineers, SW, etc - and I don't mean SV salary - just the usual for, say, a Mechanical engineer in any major city), many/most of the higher income neighborhoods are pointless - they simply cannot make that X amount from them. That leaves the lower income neighborhoods.
Now if they do their work well and pick the right places, they may be making 1.2X (you'll always target making higher than X). Then at times they decide to be "less evil" in the way you think. They're willing to lower their profit down to X. But often that's still not "nice enough" in the eyes of many, and you'll still need to evict, etc.
So they face two choices: Be viewed as somewhat evil in other's eyes and keep the property, or sell it and just stick to the career. In both cases, the tenant suffers.
Landlords can't fix this problem. Legislation can shift the market dynamics. If you want change, don't waste time shaming landlords.
I also didn't mention the obvious other factor: Landlords want to spend Y hours a month on this business. Trying to help tenants who are in trouble suddenly increases the number of hours they spend. That automatically increases the threshold X, pushing their existing business into a zone where it isn't worth the time. And after all that, many/most of those tenants will never really recover.
I have a few coworkers who got into the landlord business and quit after some years. Hearing their complaints, some of them were nice.
A local radio show did a really nice piece where they followed a low income semi-homeless family around for a year and learned their history. The family was fine for a number of years, but as it happens when you are low income, you cannot afford to have a safety net. They had some stressful events, and things cascaded, and they became homeless on and off. After a number of years of this, they managed to get really good housing assistance (state/city - don't recall) - I think almost a 2000 square foot house to live in, albeit in a crappy neighborhood. But their lives changed greatly for the better.
While I was listening to the show, I couldn't think of anything landlords could do to help them. The tenants weren't irresponsible people - they just had life events. Government helped them out, but that has its own problems - for every one they properly help out, many can't get help - not enough tax dollars to go round.
Years ago, before I started thinking of business, I would express sentiments like yours to businessmen - that life isn't all about profits, and they could still have a good life with a lower margin. A common response was they're trying to make a living, and not give charity. When I finally analyzed it from the math above, I see the point. If I can make more money by quitting the business and working in industry, then insisting I stay in the business and make less really is charity. It's pretty much always the case that the person who is suggesting a lower profit margin does not run a business and has a relatively secure, decent job. A lot of businesses, even when making high margins, are suffering existential crises. Yes, the money is good now, but 2 years from now I may be out of business. There's less volatility in a regular job.
tldr: No easy solution, and the current situation is mostly a result of ordinary people doing ordinary (and not greedy) things. I can only see legislation helping.