Car campers in beach parking lots • Hacker News Board

Re: Car campers in beach parking lots

#51

Post by homerhomer » Fri, Mar 22, 2019, 7:39 PM UTC

I'm against live-in vehicles and this life-style choice. On paper it sounds fine but in reality horrible for many reasons. For the most part, people in this situation are in a challenging state and the least of their worries is the environment around them. Is a mother of 2 living in a small RV who relies on donations going to pay for disposal service?

I live in Portland, a city that used to known for being a clean city. In the last 8 years we have had a large increase of car live-in residents and homeless population. I would not call Portland a clean city anymore. In-fact it's far from it. Homeless make up about 3% of the population, but according to a recent article they make up half of the arrests. Personally I've had car camping people outside of my house and we've been afraid of retaliation for call them in and try not to make contact.

I understand that these people have nowhere to go, but cities should create a homeless car shelter of sorts or some other solution other than just hoping for the best of people living on the edge.

2011 article on how clean Portland is(was) - http://www.digitaljournal.com/article/308068

RV issue in Portland -https://www.kgw.com/article/news/local/portland-neighbors-fe... Homeless issue -https://katu.com/news/local/neighbors-say-theyre-getting-now... Half of the Police arrests are Homeless - https://www.oregonlive.com/portland/2018/07/portland_mayor_t...

Re: Car campers in beach parking lots

#52

Post by newnewpdro » Fri, Mar 22, 2019, 7:39 PM UTC

It's great that this law has been struck down as unconstitutional.

I've slept in my car numerous times along the PCH in the past, and in SoCal it's particularly irritating how much CHP harrasses folks just trying to get some shut-eye on a road trip.

I've had CHP wake me at 3AM then force me to drive half asleep down a winding cliff-top road I had pulled over specifically to avoid driving sleepily down.

But I fully expect there to be new laws introduced to prevent these streets from becoming trailer parks. The judge already criticized the vagueness, they'll just get more specific targeting persistent occupancies.

The concern for sanitation is very legitimate. Especially for folks in cars and vans, there's no holding tank infrastructure in these vehicles. A person spending a day somewhere in a car with no public restrooms nearby is either urinating in a bottle or on the ground. And if in a bottle, the bottle is very likely getting emptied on the ground nearby.

Even people in RVs and campers have fairly limited holding capacity. It doesn't take much laziness to exhaust the capacity and regress into the same pattern of a car/van-dweller. Not to mention those systems are failure-prone and often neglected because who wants to do maintenance on a sewage system?

Re: Car campers in beach parking lots

#53

Post by ChuckMcM » Fri, Mar 22, 2019, 7:39 PM UTC

rhacker wrote: post #45

ChuckMcM wrote: post #32

I talked with a guy living in a motorhome in Mountain View California, he works for Google. He could certainly afford an apartment but said his payments on the motorhome are about $600 a month, and an apartment close to Google would be $2500 a month at least, so he feels like its a free $2000 a month to save or spend. He's fortunate that Google also has nice showers, free food, and laundry. Things he might otherwise…

Actually a better business is to start having more RV parks in the SV. The last 5 years has been record breaking sales history for RVs. Yet the rest of the industry (RV parks specifically) isn't catching up. Most of the people buying RVs are now surprised that no RV parks have availability. I've watched for the past 5 years bay area periphery cities go from having tons of space any time of the year, to being complete…

Sort of, sort of not. I agree that it would be better to create more RV parks but the zoning issues are pretty extreme in that most cities are not big fans of RV parks for more historical reasons than actual ones. Sunnyvale, as a city, has preserved its mobile home parks in an effort to keep housing more affordable.

I have an inquiry out to a developer on the cost of building a 'multi-story' RV park. Not trying to recreate the "stacks" here (if you're a Ready Player One fan), but wondering if you could increase the available parking spots while not consuming additional acreage. It has to be a better use than 'public storage' buildings.

Re: Car campers in beach parking lots

#54

Post by ctack » Fri, Mar 22, 2019, 7:40 PM UTC

klank wrote: post #39

jethro_tell wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Why does it seem to be that we, at least in America, punish the poor for being poor, instead of, or even at the same time that we try to help them up? I think that's the natural consequence of having spent years pushing the idea that being poor is a personal choice or a lack of character. Once you make the connection that it's directly linked to a lack of character, you can be punitive instead of providing a safety…

> and punitive is much cheaper for those of us with high moral character. I didn't understand this assertion. Could you expand on it a bit?

You could read it as “It’s cheaper for the not poor”. Parent comment mentions that in their country, being poor has come be seen as a choice and the poor as lacking in character. So being not poor means you have high moral character.

Re: Car campers in beach parking lots

#55

Post by djakjxnanjak » Fri, Mar 22, 2019, 7:41 PM UTC

lstodd wrote: post #38

djakjxnanjak wrote: post #29

Our public policy often chooses to subsidize free parking by making large chunks of land available for free use by automobiles. Modern technology allows permanent structures to be much more space-efficient for housing by building many stories high. However, the use of such technology is often banned and structures are limited to one or two stories. Also, even for one-story structures, rules often require eg. 6000 sqf…

And this "technology" is banned for the right reasons. It is demonstrably harmful to the enviroment, physical and mind health and the society in general. I'm all for this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LtSf69vjrVM

Slums constructed to hide the poor are not the same thing developers trying to sell units would choose to build. Initially developers would target the high-end (this is what they do now with supply limits in place), then when demand in the high-end is exhausted they would build for the middle class. When the middle class upgrades into newer units, older homes they leave behind will become available to those lower on the ladder.

This can be supplemented to benefit the poor sooner by eg. requiring a subset of units in high-end developments to be subsidized for people with lower incomes.

Re: Car campers in beach parking lots

#56

Post by rhacker » Fri, Mar 22, 2019, 7:42 PM UTC

ChuckMcM wrote: post #53

rhacker wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Actually a better business is to start having more RV parks in the SV. The last 5 years has been record breaking sales history for RVs. Yet the rest of the industry (RV parks specifically) isn't catching up. Most of the people buying RVs are now surprised that no RV parks have availability. I've watched for the past 5 years bay area periphery cities go from having tons of space any time of the year, to being complete…

Sort of, sort of not. I agree that it would be better to create more RV parks but the zoning issues are pretty extreme in that most cities are not big fans of RV parks for more historical reasons than actual ones. Sunnyvale, as a city, has preserved its mobile home parks in an effort to keep housing more affordable. I have an inquiry out to a developer on the cost of building a 'multi-story' RV park. Not trying to re…

These fifth wheels and class As can weigh up to 24000 pounds (even if they where never legally allowed to). A moving object at that weight would make a multi-story RV park an architecture/safety nightmare.

I'm talking about east-bay area that still has space. Not sunnyvale.

- Just checked out the ready player one images - holy mother of guacamole.

Re: Car campers in beach parking lots

#57

Post by some1else » Fri, Mar 22, 2019, 7:42 PM UTC

binarysolo wrote: post #47

klank wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> and punitive is much cheaper for those of us with high moral character. I didn't understand this assertion. Could you expand on it a bit?

The commenter is just being sarcastic. It's easier to penalize others and self-justify than to care and help others.

https://www.cs.cmu.edu/~sef/sefSmiley.htm :-)

Re: Car campers in beach parking lots

#58

Post by netsharc » Fri, Mar 22, 2019, 7:42 PM UTC

klank wrote: post #39

jethro_tell wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Why does it seem to be that we, at least in America, punish the poor for being poor, instead of, or even at the same time that we try to help them up? I think that's the natural consequence of having spent years pushing the idea that being poor is a personal choice or a lack of character. Once you make the connection that it's directly linked to a lack of character, you can be punitive instead of providing a safety…

> and punitive is much cheaper for those of us with high moral character. I didn't understand this assertion. Could you expand on it a bit?

I think s/he's being sarcastic about saying that moneyed people have "high moral character".

To expand in what was said, when meritocracy teaches you that hard work will always bring success (ignoring luck), then the opposite must be true: if you're poor, it must be because you're lazy.

And rich trustfund kids/lucky startup bros need to believe they have moral character instead of just rich parents/luck, so they think they're righteous people when in reality maybe they're dicks.

Re: Car campers in beach parking lots

#59

Post by creato » Fri, Mar 22, 2019, 7:43 PM UTC

CalRobert wrote: post #46

ChuckMcM wrote: post #32

I talked with a guy living in a motorhome in Mountain View California, he works for Google. He could certainly afford an apartment but said his payments on the motorhome are about $600 a month, and an apartment close to Google would be $2500 a month at least, so he feels like its a free $2000 a month to save or spend. He's fortunate that Google also has nice showers, free food, and laundry. Things he might otherwise…

The insanity, here, is that you can't take the land the motorhome is on and build a studio on it. We give cars free places to sleep while people are homeless.

There's a pretty strong notion in this thread that parking is valued at $0 and this is a great social injustice, but this is not the case. Try getting a permit from just about any city to reserve a parking spot for occupying (for construction, moving, etc.). The cost will likely be comparable to renting an apartment of similar area for a similar amount of time. More, if the parking spot is in a high density area (multi-story buildings).

Parking is only "free" if you share it. Perma-parking a motorhome or "building a studio on it" is not that.

Re: Car campers in beach parking lots

#60

Post by mikeryan » Fri, Mar 22, 2019, 7:44 PM UTC

ChuckMcM wrote: post #53

rhacker wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Actually a better business is to start having more RV parks in the SV. The last 5 years has been record breaking sales history for RVs. Yet the rest of the industry (RV parks specifically) isn't catching up. Most of the people buying RVs are now surprised that no RV parks have availability. I've watched for the past 5 years bay area periphery cities go from having tons of space any time of the year, to being complete…

Sort of, sort of not. I agree that it would be better to create more RV parks but the zoning issues are pretty extreme in that most cities are not big fans of RV parks for more historical reasons than actual ones. Sunnyvale, as a city, has preserved its mobile home parks in an effort to keep housing more affordable. I have an inquiry out to a developer on the cost of building a 'multi-story' RV park. Not trying to re…

The other issue here is one of available housing.

Most california cities are under extreme pressure to increase housing supply, an RV lot isn't going to house as many people as a condo/apartment building. (I honestly don't even know if an RV park counts towards overall housing supply)

Though the stacks idea is interesting ;-)

There's a few buildings going up in the Oakland Temescal by Rad Urban which are modular its been cool seeing units with kitchens etc already installed getting stacked up into a larger complex.

https://radurban.com/