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At $75K, housing a prisoner in California now costs more than a year at Harvard

latimes.com

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Re: At $75K, housing a prisoner in California now costs more than a year at Harvard

#381

Post by riahi »

bluGill wrote: post #248
riahi wrote: post #230

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We used to institutionalize people, then we defunded the entire psychiatric infrastructure.

While it sounds bad when you put it that way, the psychiatric infrastructure that existed before was evil. As bad as things are for those who need help, they are probably better living on the streets than in those institutions. I knew someone who was in an orphanage (not the same as psychiatric, but similar problems existed there I just don't have anecdotes to share) in the 1920s. They would beat him with a chimney b…

The rise in American incarceration coincides with the de-institutionalization of psychiatric patients and subsequent defunding of community mental health programs. Perhaps they are linked, and prisons have now taken on the previous role of psychiatric institutions.

The fact is, I used to see mentally ill patients all the time and have no where to send them. Often, they would turn to crime just to survive or get off the streets.

While I agree there were abuses in the past, wholesale destruction of the old system is a very American response without any real thought to its replacement.

Re: At $75K, housing a prisoner in California now costs more than a year at Harvard

#382

Post by hannasanarion »

ausjke wrote: post #373
hannasanarion wrote: post #275

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe if we actually took care of people ant taught them how to make a living on their own, they wouldn't have to rely on gangs for protection.

statistically there will always be 6%(roughly) people that are going to do bad things no matter what you do, I think it is math.

Boy it sure is convenient that 6% of Americans are black males, huh?

Re: At $75K, housing a prisoner in California now costs more than a year at Harvard

#383

Post by riahi »

tetraca wrote: post #350
riahi wrote: post #230

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We used to institutionalize people, then we defunded the entire psychiatric infrastructure.

The infrastructure we had was partially disbanded/defunded because asylums frequently subjected patients to inhumane conditions and outright abuse. There were movements in the 70s by ex-patients and their families trying to get people out of the system and living in programs that try to help patients live more independently, because of this.

And prisons don’t? I would argue the modern American prison system has stepped into the role of the old asylum system and done an arguably worse job.

Re: At $75K, housing a prisoner in California now costs more than a year at Harvard

#384

Post by adrianmonk »

dabbledash wrote: post #16

Not commenting on the specific numbers, but maybe it shouldn’t be surprising that a year of college costs less than food, housing, healthcare, security, and programs combined?

It's an apples and oranges comparison in the first place. There are security expenses related to prison populations. You need staff, facilities, equipment, etc. to manage prisoners behavior (prevent fights, etc.) and keep them from escaping. The two things have a different mission, so of course they're going to have different costs.

It's like saying a refrigerator is more expensive than a microwave. It doesn't mean anything because they do different things.

Re: At $75K, housing a prisoner in California now costs more than a year at Harvard

#385

Post by mrguyorama »

fwip wrote: post #322
countryqt30 wrote: post #134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Prison startup: you pay the government, not the government you. You then force the people to CREATE VALUE and work for other labor-intensive work (e.g. cleaning, construction, ...)

That's called slavery.

Good thing the 13th amendment allows slavery for inmates!

Re: At $75K, housing a prisoner in California now costs more than a year at Harvard

#386

Post by chmod775 »

gridlockd wrote: post #375
chmod775 wrote: post #339

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4472929/ Let's fact-check some of their numbers. Spoiler Alert: Their cited sources have completely different numbers. EDIT: I removed some examples that are probably correct according to their definition of recidivism (they only looked at prisoners -> offenders). Table 2. Germany 35% (them) vs 23% (source) They may have linked the wrong source here, since the source the…

Your fact check fails a sanity check. > Netherlands 48% (them) vs 27.6% (source): Fact Check Failed They picked the number of "ex-prisoners" that become prisoners again (i.e. actual reconviction ), you picked the number of "adult offenders" that become prisoners for the first time. You literally just picked the lowest number in the table without comprehending it. The correct number (48.5%) was right above. > Germany…

Sorry. I found some mistakes in my reading of their article as well and excluded those Table 1 examples from my initial post.

Though I added something I previously excluded for Table 2, which I'm still unable to find in their sources.

About your reading of the sources though:

> They picked the number of "ex-prisoners" that become prisoners again (i.e. actual reconviction)

No that would be Table 2, not Table 1. Table 1 is about "ex-prisoners" that got convicted of any offense again, not necessarily a prison sentence.

> you picked the number of "adult offenders" that become prisoners for the first time.

That's not what Table 5.1 [1] is at all: "Reconvictions as a result of any crime, not disposed of through an acquittal, a dismissal by reason of unlikelihood of conviction, or any other technical decision."

> 35% is the average including fines (recidivism: 29%) which make up for the vast majority of sentences. For adult prison sentences the recidivism rate is 45%/39% and for youth prison sentences it is 64%/62% (without/with parole).

Yes. This is where I messed up. Though note that that recidivism rate (45%) is "ex-prisoner" -> any conviction (incl. fines). Which likely fits what they wanted to show in Table 1.

[1]: https://www.wodc.nl/binaries/factsheet-2011-5a-def-4apr2012-...

Re: At $75K, housing a prisoner in California now costs more than a year at Harvard

#387

Post by siemprenocasa »

NeedMoreTea wrote: post #198
dalbasal wrote: post #126

I think it's worth thinking about the history of incarceration, for context. Until fairly recently, prison wasn't really the way most punishments worked. They did hangings, beatings, shaming, banishment... Imprisoning people long term is expensive, and kings probably couldn't have afforded anything like a modern scale prison system. The closest thing was more slavery than imprisonment, and economically self-sufficien…

In Britain under the Bloody Code, you could (and would) be hanged, or deported for the most trivial offences. The prevailing view was very much of the pour encourager les autres mould. Steal items worth 12 pence? Hanged. Lesser amount? Cut a hand off. If lucky, commuted and deported for indentured servitude in the colonies. Treason? Hanged, drawn and quartered. As we remember from history classes, stealing, murder an…

The US and the UK (or even Australia) are more appropriate comparisons of countries than the US and Norway as a result of legal systems based on common law.

It makes a difference when comparing justice systems: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Map_of_the_Legal_systems_...

Re: At $75K, housing a prisoner in California now costs more than a year at Harvard

#388

Post by tetraca »

riahi wrote: post #383
tetraca wrote: post #350

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The infrastructure we had was partially disbanded/defunded because asylums frequently subjected patients to inhumane conditions and outright abuse. There were movements in the 70s by ex-patients and their families trying to get people out of the system and living in programs that try to help patients live more independently, because of this.

And prisons don’t? I would argue the modern American prison system has stepped into the role of the old asylum system and done an arguably worse job.

That the American prison system is worse at the job doesn't really excuse the behavior of the old asylum system. We shouldn't fall into the same traps. There needs to be significant reform of both. What mechanisms and techniques need to be in place, however, I am not in any way qualified to say.

Re: At $75K, housing a prisoner in California now costs more than a year at Harvard

#390

Post by mrguyorama »

riahi wrote: post #383
tetraca wrote: post #350

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The infrastructure we had was partially disbanded/defunded because asylums frequently subjected patients to inhumane conditions and outright abuse. There were movements in the 70s by ex-patients and their families trying to get people out of the system and living in programs that try to help patients live more independently, because of this.

And prisons don’t? I would argue the modern American prison system has stepped into the role of the old asylum system and done an arguably worse job.

So let's shut it down too then. Maybe when we have literally nothing left, America can finally realize that people committing crimes need help, not vindictive punishment.

But this is the same America that regularly jokes about men getting raped in prison, and gleefully discuss how convicted pedophiles will likely die if they end up in general population

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