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At $75K, housing a prisoner in California now costs more than a year at Harvard

latimes.com

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Re: At $75K, housing a prisoner in California now costs more than a year at Harvard

#301

Post by moosey »

Mc_Big_G wrote: post #295
dalbasal wrote: post #126

I think it's worth thinking about the history of incarceration, for context. Until fairly recently, prison wasn't really the way most punishments worked. They did hangings, beatings, shaming, banishment... Imprisoning people long term is expensive, and kings probably couldn't have afforded anything like a modern scale prison system. The closest thing was more slavery than imprisonment, and economically self-sufficien…

Are you suggesting we've actually TRIED rehabilitation? If so, I think our definitions differ. We haven't tried anything besides incarceration.

We don't have rehabilitation, we have punishment. It doesn't matter if we call it rehabilitation, if it is only punitive, it's still not rehabilitation.

Other places have rehabilitation, and it appears to work.

Re: At $75K, housing a prisoner in California now costs more than a year at Harvard

#302

Post by insertcredit »

femiagbabiaka wrote: post #285
insertcredit wrote: post #261

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Also much lower IQs in the US prison population compared to Norway's. Combine that with the gangs in the US that effectively rule the prison system - is there such a thing as a shot caller in Norway ? - and there is no hope for any sort of rehabilitation to take place.

You could not possibly have any proof to back up this racist statement.

The black-white IQ gap in the US is not scientifically disputed. [1]

US prisons are ~38% black. [2] Norwegian prisons aren't.

Not to mention that in general, and without taking into account race, you don't expect the brightest to be in there.

Ergo average IQ in US prisons being much lower than in Norwegian prisons.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Race_and_intelligence#United_S...

[2] https://www.bop.gov/about/statistics/statistics_inmate_race....

Re: At $75K, housing a prisoner in California now costs more than a year at Harvard

#303

Post by CalRobert »

AlexTWithBeard wrote: post #204
dragonwriter wrote: post #194

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> By "an activist group" I mean people who confuse work with slavery. You mean, people who confuse forced work with slavery.

I think that depends on definition of "forced". If I stop working, I'll get kicked out of my house and will probably die of hunger. Does it mean I am forced to work?

You can look for another job, though.

Re: At $75K, housing a prisoner in California now costs more than a year at Harvard

#304

Post by PretzelFisch »

creaghpatr wrote: post #202
e40 wrote: post #190

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think it's debatable, after generations of experience, that prisons make people more criminal. I've heard over and over again, in the words of criminals themselves (on podcasts, in new stories), that they got into the career part of being a criminal while behind bars.

Yeah, but of course they would blame the prisons, who else would bear responsibility...themselves?

If you put felon in your job application, not to many people will hire you.

Re: At $75K, housing a prisoner in California now costs more than a year at Harvard

#305

Post by CalRobert »

SketchySeaBeast wrote: post #267
hourislate wrote: post #197

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What about the man in Toronto who shooed away a Raccoon with a broom? He had to fight for his life to avoid jail and payed a pretty hefty fine. https://www.thestar.com/news/crime/2013/03/12/man_who_attack... Canada is very light on it's criminals. Child Molesters, Rapists and even murderers tend to spend little time behind bars with little consequence for their actions. Here is another article about how broken Canadi…

>Nguyen, 55, pleaded guilty at Old City Hall court to beating three baby raccoons with a shovel, probably killing one and breaking another’s foreleg, because they were destroying his garden in 2011. He beat the living tar out of living creatures instead of dealing with them humanely - yeah, that should be punished. > The media won't even tell you the animals name or anything about him. Why would you need his name? Ha…

So, not a fan of animal cruelty, but I can go to a store and purchase meat from animals raised in horrific conditions (including veal, foie gras, etc.) so if nothing else the law here seems... inconsistent.

Re: At $75K, housing a prisoner in California now costs more than a year at Harvard

#306

Post by piva00 »

everdev wrote: post #287
lb1lf wrote: post #175

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Rehabilitation IS societally useful. However, it does require that the prime focus is rehabilitation rather than punishment. In my native Norway, rehabilitation has been the focus to such an extent that foreign media come to do stories on the 'holiday camps' prison time is served in. It somehow works, though. Recidivism is very low. Here's a few examples on how inmates do their time -Education is encouraged - whether…

> Recidivism is very low. Anders Breivik got 21 years for killing 77 people. Are you worried about when he gets out in 2033?

He very likely won't ever get out. He is allowed to have his case reviewed after 21 years (as it's how life in prison works in some European countries such as Norway, Sweden and Germany, not sure about others) but realistically he will never be out even if he's reformed as it will be a danger for his own life if he is back into the general population.

Re: At $75K, housing a prisoner in California now costs more than a year at Harvard

#307

Post by ovi256 »

everdev wrote: post #287
lb1lf wrote: post #175

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Rehabilitation IS societally useful. However, it does require that the prime focus is rehabilitation rather than punishment. In my native Norway, rehabilitation has been the focus to such an extent that foreign media come to do stories on the 'holiday camps' prison time is served in. It somehow works, though. Recidivism is very low. Here's a few examples on how inmates do their time -Education is encouraged - whether…

> Recidivism is very low. Anders Breivik got 21 years for killing 77 people. Are you worried about when he gets out in 2033?

Not at all, he'll be way beyond the age window where men commit violent crimes. Old age mellows.

He'll also be under close supervision.

Re: At $75K, housing a prisoner in California now costs more than a year at Harvard

#308

Post by SketchySeaBeast »

CalRobert wrote: post #305
SketchySeaBeast wrote: post #267

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Nguyen, 55, pleaded guilty at Old City Hall court to beating three baby raccoons with a shovel, probably killing one and breaking another’s foreleg, because they were destroying his garden in 2011. He beat the living tar out of living creatures instead of dealing with them humanely - yeah, that should be punished. > The media won't even tell you the animals name or anything about him. Why would you need his name? Ha…

So, not a fan of animal cruelty, but I can go to a store and purchase meat from animals raised in horrific conditions (including veal, foie gras, etc.) so if nothing else the law here seems... inconsistent.

The conceit here is much the same as the fact that a surgeon can legally cut you open and remove your appendix, but your neighbour who is really into medicine and knives can't. Veal and Foie Gras don't seem right either, but they have the veneer of legitimacy.

Also, in this case there was the options to use traps or other methods to shoo them away - beating with a shovel doesn't seem humane, it just seems like it would have been convenient.

Re: At $75K, housing a prisoner in California now costs more than a year at Harvard

#309

Post by golergka »

jordanbeiber wrote: post #278
golergka wrote: post #236

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Elected people in government or not so elected entrepreneurs. I'll pick different entities competing with one another over a monolith. > Violence is a consequence of many factors, and in a decent democracy having it monopolized with the governement we have elected is probably a good thing. Never said it wasn't. But the entity that monopolizes it should be as small as possible. > Why is the worlds most happy nations…

I find the ”competition” argument quite interesting. From what I have experienced so far through life it looks like this supposedly healthy competition leads to variants of VW & co behaviour down the line. I see very few exceptions from my northern europe socialist bubble. When it comes to: - School - Health - Police - fire & rescue services - etc, whatever you would consider part of welfare I want the best, not a ch…

When you don't have a choice, any option, however bad, is best - simply by definition. It's the competition that's keeping it from stagnation.

Re: At $75K, housing a prisoner in California now costs more than a year at Harvard

#310

Post by lb1lf »

everdev wrote: post #287
lb1lf wrote: post #175

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Rehabilitation IS societally useful. However, it does require that the prime focus is rehabilitation rather than punishment. In my native Norway, rehabilitation has been the focus to such an extent that foreign media come to do stories on the 'holiday camps' prison time is served in. It somehow works, though. Recidivism is very low. Here's a few examples on how inmates do their time -Education is encouraged - whether…

> Recidivism is very low. Anders Breivik got 21 years for killing 77 people. Are you worried about when he gets out in 2033?

He won't.

Norwegian law opens for in essence indefinite terms for inmates deemed a lasting danger to society.

ABB was sentenced under this statute and may well be locked up for the rest of his days; he may, however, at regular intervals apply to a board for release. He must then convince this board that he is no longer a threat to society and good luck with that.

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