Earlier quoted context omitted.
Here's a 2017 ieee spectrum piece discussing a competitor's (Luminar) use of 1550nm light for reasons involving eye safety: https://spectrum.ieee.org/cars-that-think/transportation/sel... I'm still reading it, so I can't tl;dr it quite yet, but the answer in theory should be in here.
That seems to settle it: > The retina does not respond to the 905-nm infrared light used in current car lidars, so we can’t see it. But the eye transmits 905 nm to the retina, so it’s subject to the same restrictions as visible light. In fact, it’s even more hazardous because the eye cannot automatically turn away from a bright source that the retina can’t sense. The eye is opaque to 1550 nm light, and so even if you…
Lumotive Says It Has a Practical Solid-State Lidar
31–40 of 63 posts
Re: Lumotive Says It Has a Practical Solid-State Lidar
#32Earlier quoted context omitted.
If I hadn't seen an Animats comment here, I would have copy pasted it from your history just to beat you to it. I checked out of curiosity -- you've got at least 35 posts that directly reference Continental and their Flash LIDAR based on tech from ASC that they're going to build in volume eventually. It's a valid analysis, but why post it every time LIDAR is referenced?
I don't have any connection with Continental or ASC. I did see ASC's flash LIDAR prototype back in 2004 when it was on an optical bench. I thought back then they had the right idea. It cost too much in small quantities. It's made in an IC fab, so cost should come down with volume. Leddar ships a flash LIDAR, but it's 16x1 pixels. Useful for near obstacle detection, but not enough to create a point cloud. Quanergy see…
You can't use LIDARs for safety critical obstacle detection as such...
Re: Lumotive Says It Has a Practical Solid-State Lidar
#33Earlier quoted context omitted.
No they don't. Flash LIDAR suffers from too little range, if you have an angular resolution for the LIDAR of say 0.01 degrees, you're looking at 36 million points! This means that you need 36 million times as much energy to match the same SNR as normal LIDAR. Even with 1550nm light and single photon avalanche diodes (SPADs), this is clearly infeasible. Even Princeton Lightwave (now bought by Ford/Argo), arguably the…
128x128 is as far as ASC got. There's a tradeoff between range and beam width for flash LIDAR. The idea is to get the price down, so you can have multiple wide-angle short range ones around the perimeter of the vehicle, and a narrow beam long range one pointed ahead.
Re: Lumotive Says It Has a Practical Solid-State Lidar
#34Earlier quoted context omitted.
i always paste a link to Ignition! in every rocket engine thread and there are always people surprised that such a book has been written. relevant https://xkcd.com/1053/
So where’s the link?
Re: Lumotive Says It Has a Practical Solid-State Lidar
#35Re: Lumotive Says It Has a Practical Solid-State Lidar
#36Please correct me if I am wrong - I am under the impression that camera-based systems were getting good enough to make lidar moot, at least for self-driving car applications.
Disclaimer: If I was a betting man, I'd short the hell out of TSLA.
Re: Lumotive Says It Has a Practical Solid-State Lidar
#37> The device can thus see far without having to turn up the brightness. That’s important because the sensor works at 905 nanometers, an eye-sensitive wavelength the company chose because it works with silicon. You need exotic compound semiconductors to make and detect laser light at 1550 nm, a wavelength that’s easier on the eyes 905 nm is infrared, outside the visible range for humans. If someone made a LIDAR at tha…
Typically you select a class of laser safe for the environment it will be used in -- class 1 is typical of LIDAR systems for this reason which poses no eye damage risk.
If you somehow fixed the laser and stared into it, it would probably hurt.
See for example: https://knowledge.faro.com/Hardware/3D_Scanners/Focus/Laser_...
according to the test report, if the mirror fails, you would hit dangerous levels of energy deposited within 0.2s and they recommend that the laser must be turned off within 100ms to avoid risk of eye damage.
Re: Lumotive Says It Has a Practical Solid-State Lidar
#38> seeded by money [...] from Intellectual Ventures Hm, what's IV's play here?
Re: Lumotive Says It Has a Practical Solid-State Lidar
#39Earlier quoted context omitted.
That seems to settle it: > The retina does not respond to the 905-nm infrared light used in current car lidars, so we can’t see it. But the eye transmits 905 nm to the retina, so it’s subject to the same restrictions as visible light. In fact, it’s even more hazardous because the eye cannot automatically turn away from a bright source that the retina can’t sense. The eye is opaque to 1550 nm light, and so even if you…
Which isn't to say that 1550 nm light is safer -- the mode of destruction is just different, e.g. corneal damage leading to cataracts or surface burns rather than retinal damage.
[IANAD] corneal damage seems to be more preferable as it is fixable
Re: Lumotive Says It Has a Practical Solid-State Lidar
#40Earlier quoted context omitted.
If I hadn't seen an Animats comment here, I would have copy pasted it from your history just to beat you to it. I checked out of curiosity -- you've got at least 35 posts that directly reference Continental and their Flash LIDAR based on tech from ASC that they're going to build in volume eventually. It's a valid analysis, but why post it every time LIDAR is referenced?
I don't have any connection with Continental or ASC. I did see ASC's flash LIDAR prototype back in 2004 when it was on an optical bench. I thought back then they had the right idea. It cost too much in small quantities. It's made in an IC fab, so cost should come down with volume. Leddar ships a flash LIDAR, but it's 16x1 pixels. Useful for near obstacle detection, but not enough to create a point cloud. Quanergy see…
It also seems odd to state that Lumotive isn't novel. The fact that people have made SLM based phased array beam steering is hardly germane to the Lumotive being able to put together a robust, wide aperture, high speed, high resolution beam steering technology, let alone a complete lidar. There is simply a lot more to getting this stuff to work than just reading some paper from 2004 about SLM based steering in the lab.
Also, no lidar OEMs have a "buy" button. You're suggesting that this is because it's all a scam? I think it's because they don't need or want to sell to you. They are all out making partnerships with large vendors. I'll grant that some companies do appear to have vaporware products (most famously Quanergy's solid state product), but the reason there are many companies working at it is being there is a need and lots of commercial potential. The commercial potential in this case comes from the automotive industry, so there is basically zero incentive to sell at a consumer level. Not even velodyne, who definitely has real products, sells over the web. Even Ouster, who prides themselves at being the "available now" high performance lidar company, doesn't have a "buy" button. Perhaps if you email their sales guys and then send them $4k they will send you a unit, but it remains that the business model isn't sustained on individual sales.
Finally, the continental lidar you linked has pretty bad angular resolution (~1deg) and no stated range. The latter probably being because flash lidar is at a fundamental disadvantage to scanned lidar. Instead of all the photons going to one place, they go everywhere. This scales very badly with range, so they will be power (SNR) limited. The only way to overcome this would be to have correspondingly more sensitive detectors, which I do not believe is the case. Even if they gang together many small flash lidars that look at narrow FOVs, those lidars would probably have to be close to one pixel wide to compete on SNR while staying eye safe, in which case you end up losing the "scales on a chip" economics. This might be one reason why Ouster still spins a pixel wide array rather than strobing many.