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Tesla sues former employees for allegedly stealing data, Autopilot source code

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Re: Tesla sues former employees for allegedly stealing data, Autopilot source code

#71
post #67

i think back to https://www.bloomberg.com/news/features/2019-03-13/when-elon... (previous HN discussion: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19378658 ) > Later that day, Tripp heard from the sheriff’s department in Storey County, Nev. Tesla’s security department had passed a tip to police. An anonymous caller had contacted the company to say Tripp was planning a mass shooting at the Gigafactory. it sounds like there…

Extraordinary claims requires extraordinary evidence.

Re: Tesla sues former employees for allegedly stealing data, Autopilot source code

#72
post #67

i think back to https://www.bloomberg.com/news/features/2019-03-13/when-elon... (previous HN discussion: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19378658 ) > Later that day, Tripp heard from the sheriff’s department in Storey County, Nev. Tesla’s security department had passed a tip to police. An anonymous caller had contacted the company to say Tripp was planning a mass shooting at the Gigafactory. it sounds like there…

> prosecuted as attempted-murder-(by-cop), this behaviour by any employer to any former employee, let alone a whistleblower, is completely unacceptable. So the only evidence that we have as to whether this anonymous call did or did not occur is the statements by Tesla alleging that it did, and you choose to believe that it didn't. Why? I can understand holding Telsa to a higher burden of proof, - concluding that we d…

> did, and you choose to believe that it didn't. Why?

maybe the call was indeed real, but the call was from someone in management at Telsa, or someone at arms length that they got to do make the call. i agree this is speculation, if there is evidence that this is the case then whoever was involved stuffed up pretty badly. maybe i'm completely off the mark. as I said, i'd like to see it investigated.

Regardless of whether there was actually a call, or who made it, it's difficult to understand what other motivation any party other than Telsa trying to suppress a whistleblower would have to chase after the former employee. again, this is speculation, but i'd bet on it.

Re: Tesla sues former employees for allegedly stealing data, Autopilot source code

#73
post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is definitely poor judgement by Zoox. And if Tesla had its act together, Zoox would be totally f'd (assuming the unlikely scenario that China would actually enforce a court judgement against a Chinese company). The issue though is that Tesla has to show that Zoox is actually using that information in its products or processes. It's possible--even likely--that they'll be able to do so with respect to the Autopilot…

That seems, again, extraordinarily glib and unserious. You're asserting without evidence that Tesla had nothing of value in the documents stolen, but all they have to do to prevail is show that any of the trade secrets provided a competetive advantage. So sure, their logistics are a mess in general, but if they had a great idea for, I dunno, shipping-based rolling warehouse allocation or something, and Zoox got caugh…

So sure, their logistics are a mess in general, but if they had a great idea for, I dunno, shipping-based rolling warehouse allocation or something, and Zoox got caught doing the same thing, it's game over.

But that's not the world we live in. Tesla posted their lawsuit online, and the details are available all over.

From the Verge, on the Zoox lawsuit:

The employees allegedly made off with information related to what Tesla calls its “WARP” system, a proprietary software platform the company built to collectively manage things like manufacturing, warehousing, inventory, distribution, and transportation. “These materials and knowhow were developed by Tesla over many years, and at great expense,” the company’s lawyers write. (WARP was described by multiple former employees to CNBC last year as “seemingly never complete,” which made it hard to keep track of budgets.)

The company claims that Turner, who was a manager at a Tesla distribution center, sent confidential documents containing information about the company’s receiving and inventory procedures, along with “internal schematics and line drawings of the physical layouts of certain Tesla warehouses” to his personal email address with the words “you sly dog you...” Turner allegedly sent another document to his personal email later that same day with a note that said: “Ooooh man... so much time and effort. Loved every second of it though,” according to Tesla.

Zoox hasn't started building anything yet. It's still in the prototype stage. It's possible that Zoox would have used this information if it got to the point of actually building a car (but see Faraday Future for an example of optimistic thinking). But Tesla would need to show that Zoox used a proprietary system for managing inventory, warehousing, etc., instead of the many platforms available on the market, most of which appear to function better than Tesla's in-house system. Tesla would alternatively need to show that Zoox used the layouts of Tesla's warehouses in designing its own.

It's the same issue that Waymo ran into with Uber: whatever the former employee may have done, the new employer isn't liable for anything if they don't actually use that misappropriated information.

Re: Tesla sues former employees for allegedly stealing data, Autopilot source code

#74
I get that it’s fun to beat up on Tesla. We love nothing more than the little guy winning and the winning guy brought low. Tis the great cycle of life.

However, Tesla is the largest battery manufacturer in the world, and manufactures their batteries at significantly lower cost, higher performance, tighter tolerances, and with greater automation than anyone else in the world.

It’s underestimating the difficulty of the problem by far to point to specific (relatively minor, if not insignificant) failures of Tesla and generalize that their logistics IP isn’t worth stealing or couldn’t possibly be beneficial to a competitor.

The gross margins that Tesla has achieved on the Model 3 I believe speaks for itself as the worlds best at that price point, and that does not come without a well run supply chain.

There is no question that Tesla runs hot. I’d like to see anyone else try and come close to what they’ve shipped without a fair share of fuckups along the way.

Re: Tesla sues former employees for allegedly stealing data, Autopilot source code

#75
post #74

I get that it’s fun to beat up on Tesla. We love nothing more than the little guy winning and the winning guy brought low. Tis the great cycle of life. However, Tesla is the largest battery manufacturer in the world, and manufactures their batteries at significantly lower cost, higher performance, tighter tolerances, and with greater automation than anyone else in the world. It’s underestimating the difficulty of the…

> I get that it’s fun to beat up on Tesla.

There are many reasons to legitimately shit on Tesla including their worker treatment, statements made by their CEO etc.

Re: Tesla sues former employees for allegedly stealing data, Autopilot source code

#76

I think this "lawsuit" is an April fools joke, as Tesla openly open source everything they work on: https://www.tesla.com/blog/all-our-patent-are-belong-you

patent != copyright

To add on that, patents require the disclosure of a method in exchange for a protection of that method. If Tesla applies for a patent, they have "opened the source" by that action. If Tesla then goes and open sources their patents, they've essentially said "we don't need protection anymore, feel free to build this right now instead of in 20 years."

Trade secrets, like how they get their material, some specific PLC code, code that isn't specifically disclosed, or change orders for specific mechanisms have de jure copyright and ownership by Tesla. If Tesla decides not to publish, publicize, or even share documents, someone who shouldn't have documents but does, as well as the person who violated the copyright would be in trouble.

Re: Tesla sues former employees for allegedly stealing data, Autopilot source code

#77
post #74

I get that it’s fun to beat up on Tesla. We love nothing more than the little guy winning and the winning guy brought low. Tis the great cycle of life. However, Tesla is the largest battery manufacturer in the world, and manufactures their batteries at significantly lower cost, higher performance, tighter tolerances, and with greater automation than anyone else in the world. It’s underestimating the difficulty of the…

> I get that it’s fun to beat up on Tesla. There are many reasons to legitimately shit on Tesla including their worker treatment, statements made by their CEO etc.

The point isn’t that you can prove Tesla isn’t perfect. That goes without saying.

The assertion was they are so far from perfect that in fact their IP isn’t even defensible in a court of law.

So please don’t reply with more quips about how Tesla isn’t perfect. Why does their CEO mouthing off on Twitter, or attacking disgruntled employees, or dubious onsite health care, or pie-in-the-sky volume estimates, or market manipulation, or literal dumpster fires on their property, mean that their IP is so much shit it can be stolen without consequence?

Throughout, despite, or perhaps even in part due to all of the above, they have still achieved great things and changed an industry. They are still the biggest battery manufacturer in the world. They still make a handful of really fucking awesome electric cars, which you can order in a few minutes on your phone and have delivered to your house. And their margins on those cars are the industry best. Those points seem to support the notion that they must have some valuable logistical IP and trade secrets backing that up.

Re: Tesla sues former employees for allegedly stealing data, Autopilot source code

#78
post #74

I get that it’s fun to beat up on Tesla. We love nothing more than the little guy winning and the winning guy brought low. Tis the great cycle of life. However, Tesla is the largest battery manufacturer in the world, and manufactures their batteries at significantly lower cost, higher performance, tighter tolerances, and with greater automation than anyone else in the world. It’s underestimating the difficulty of the…

> I get that it’s fun to beat up on Tesla. We love nothing more than the little guy winning and the winning guy brought low.

Huh.. and here I thought Tesla was the little guy in an industry defined by century-old behemoths.

The truth is people like to shit on other people. As Taylor Swift famously said[0], "we don't live just in a celebrity takedown culture, we live in a takedown culture. People will find anything about you and twist it to where it's weird or wrong or annoying or strange or bad."

Yes, there's plenty we can criticize Tesla on, but people will extend this to even seemingly benign things like having something stolen from the company because it's cool to hate on the company in $current_year

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[0] https://www.pressparty.com/pg/newsdesk/taylorswift/view/1136...

Re: Tesla sues former employees for allegedly stealing data, Autopilot source code

#79
post #74

I get that it’s fun to beat up on Tesla. We love nothing more than the little guy winning and the winning guy brought low. Tis the great cycle of life. However, Tesla is the largest battery manufacturer in the world, and manufactures their batteries at significantly lower cost, higher performance, tighter tolerances, and with greater automation than anyone else in the world. It’s underestimating the difficulty of the…

Tesla is the largest battery manufacturer in the world, and manufactures their batteries at significantly lower cost, higher performance, tighter tolerances, and with greater automation than anyone else in the world.

Panasonic manufactures the battery cells for Tesla and most of the market. Tesla assembles the cells into batteries. It would be accurate to say that Tesla is the largest manufacturer of car batteries, but they are nowhere close to being the largest battery manufacturer in the world.

The gross margins that Tesla has achieved on the Model 3 I believe speaks for itself as the worlds best at that price point, and that does not come without a well run supply chain.

We must be talking about a different Model 3. If Tesla had terrific Model 3 gross margins, it wouldn't have needed to (try to) close all of its stores and eliminate all customer referral incentives just to make the $35k Model 3 possible...in one color and style...with limited options. It's competitors could have great margins too if they only sold the car in one color, one style, and no packages, because their economies of scale would absolutely dwarf Tesla's.

I’d like to see anyone else try and come close to what they’ve shipped without a fair share of fuckups along the way

Toyota and VW shipped 10 million cars worldwide last year without any logistics issues. Hell, most companies are able to ship their products without any controllable logistics issues. Why does Tesla get a pass for failing to do something that every other manufacturer gets right?

Re: Tesla sues former employees for allegedly stealing data, Autopilot source code

#80
post #74

I get that it’s fun to beat up on Tesla. We love nothing more than the little guy winning and the winning guy brought low. Tis the great cycle of life. However, Tesla is the largest battery manufacturer in the world, and manufactures their batteries at significantly lower cost, higher performance, tighter tolerances, and with greater automation than anyone else in the world. It’s underestimating the difficulty of the…

Nothing you've said actually runs counter to the parent comment, though. Tesla can simultaneously be awful at logistics and still be the largest battery pack manufacturer because no one else really wanted to get into that game until recently.

Also, the gross margins on the Model 3 have little to do with supply chain. They cut a lot of corners on build quality, interior fit and finish, etc. to get to that margin and they're only able to do so because of lack of competition in the segment.

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