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A Beginner’s Guide to MMT

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Re: A Beginner’s Guide to MMT

#51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"It’s immediately obvious that increasing the money supply and spending the money will result in inflation." The money supply has almost quadrupled in the last 10 years, yet inflation has been low. MMT says that spending new money only causes inflation when the money is spent on stuff the private sector is also bidding for. Since that's pretty much everything that the government would want to spend money on, MMT & co…

What if Joe Sixpack creates more value by being unemployed that by being formally employed? You do understand that some people can destroy value by doing work?

You're talking about in the government employ right? Obviously no commercial enterprise will pay Joe Sixpack to do anything if he can't create value.

So let's say that Joe Sixpack can't get a "real" job. Then society's choices for him are

1. Let him starve to death. Hope that if his alternative is starving then he will reform himself enough to get a job.

2. Give him money with no strings attached (currently various welfare programs, possibly UBI in the future)

3. Give him money but make him work a gov't job where he subtracts value (e.g. he is actively making things worse than if he was just not there)

4. Find some kind of gov't job where he creates less value than he is getting paid but is still creating positive value

If we ignore #1 (because if you believe #1 is always the answer then the rest of the conversation is pointless) then the question is who falls into bucket 3?

My guess is that you have two types of people, people who are not capable of doing productive work (which I'd argue are very, very few) and people who will choose to be unproductive because of the jobs guarantee (they know that they have a job no matter how badly they do it).

So maybe the jobs guarantee should be combined with a UBI with differing levels of support. Provide a UBI which covers basic needs and a jobs guarantee which provides a little more money. There will always be people who want to work just for something to do and there will be people who want to earn the extra money to improve their lifestyle. Then you don't force people into jobs where they create negative value.

Re: A Beginner’s Guide to MMT

#52
post #5

It’s immediately obvious that increasing the money supply and spending the money will result in inflation. MMT says that the only constraint on spending is inflation, but also turns around and says that you can always print more money. That’s a contradiction. Printing more money does not change the real wealth in the economy. You can’t create additional purchasing power with an increase in the money supply because pr…

> It’s immediately obvious that increasing the money supply and spending the money will result in inflation.

I'm not criticizing your logic, but I feel like my entire adult life (I'm 42) I've been bombarded with tales of EVERY proposal will "obviously result in inflation". During this time gold has also been upheld as the only safe investment, doom is always around the corner, Europe has been on the brink of financial collapse, etc

At this point, any argument, even those that might be completely correct, that something will "obviously result in inflation" is suspect. All I've learned in this time is (1) Economists and politicians speak different languages, (2) Economics has done very poorly when it comes to modeling the future - there's always SOME model that predicted some event, but no model that has been widely reliable, and (3) Doom has been falsely predicted a ton of times, but that real financial hardships absolutely CAN happen.

Which leaves me to conclude that I can't trust what I hear, that someone is probably right, and that I have no practical way to know who that is.

Re: A Beginner’s Guide to MMT

#53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A lot of MMT is just restating things Keynesians and Austrians already know and pretending it's some brilliant idea. For instance, they think it's a big breakthrough that the government can pay down debt by issuing more currency. We already know the government can do this, and we also know why it's a bad idea.

MMT supporters would agree with that statement, AFAICT. Some claim that their theories are more clearly descended from Keynes than conventional economics do. "why it's a bad idea" aka, inflation. Which MMT spends a lot of effort modelling.

> Some claim that their theories are more clearly descended from Keynes than conventional economics do.

The conventionals recognize this too:

> With everything else going on, I really don’t want to spend time arguing with the Modern Monetary Theory people; after all, we agree on basic policy issues right now, and they are never likely to have as much destructive influence as the deficit scolds. But the MMT people think they have an argument with conventional Keynesians like me, and as long as they’re out there claiming that standard macroeconomics is all wrong, I guess we need to respond.

* https://www.nytimes.com/2019/02/25/opinion/running-on-mmt-wo...

Re: A Beginner’s Guide to MMT

#54
post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A lot of MMT is just restating things Keynesians and Austrians already know and pretending it's some brilliant idea. For instance, they think it's a big breakthrough that the government can pay down debt by issuing more currency. We already know the government can do this, and we also know why it's a bad idea.

> we also know why it's a bad idea Do tell.

Countries can and have defaulted on debts issued in their own currencies. If you printed your way out of debt that would be a default in all but name. You would cause a collapse of credit and a collapse in confidence in the currency itself.

Re: A Beginner’s Guide to MMT

#55
post #40

Probably dumb question: if debt and deficits don’t matter and a country can just print money - how does that explain cases where countries have defaulted and other countries and their own citizens lose confidence in the currency? I also don’t understand how the jobs guarantee is supposed to work. Presumably if we had work to be done we would have open positions for it. Now we have to magic up jobs, which means diluti…

> Presumably if we had work to be done we would have open positions for it. I don't follow the presumption. There's no shortage of work out there to be done, we just don't have the means to PAY for it under the current system. Now, you might not think MMT does either (in real terms), but the world is NOT short of work to be done. > Now we have to magic up jobs, which means diluting jobs other people currently do ...w…

> There's no shortage of work out there to be done

Ok, I have to agree with this to a certain point as it’s an argument I find myself making in change resisting organizations. But the implication here is that there will always be no shortage of low end minimum wage work and that the best way to discover and assign that work is via a centralized means. So with a jobs guarantee we have to invent a government system that identifies and assigns jobs that need doing in an efficient manner. No one has done that yet.

> which doesn't follow if your first point fails.

I’m not sure it’s entirely failed. Because although the ideal is “there is always more work you can shift to once this job is done” that is simply not what happens in practice. People and organizations don’t behave that way. Try working in an organization facing disruption, or an old developing world government department where people rely on it for their job, etc. It is full of resistence to anything that might put at threat peoples jobs. I’ve worked at places as recently as 2010 that still had telex operators who came to work and sat their doing nothing all day because the telex systems had been decommissioned. This is what you get with jobs guarantees.

Re: A Beginner’s Guide to MMT

#56
It occurs to me that the primary motivation for politicians to give MMT any attention is because it ostensibly enables their otherwise impractical spending plans, due to the scale of spending proposed in policies like Medicare for All (M4A) or Green New Deal (GND). The interpretation undertaken by these politicians is frightening, at least to me, since it seems like spending that is unchecked.

I can't help but think that rather than starting with a principled look at macroeconomic theory, this is really just politicians figuring out which theory or economic "camp" enables them, and then throwing their weight behind it. In today's age of populism both on the left and right of the American political spectrum, I am extremely wary of proposals for such widely-scoped and fundamental changes to be undertaken just because they have received wide attention very recently. After all, MMT is not new - it is a rehash/repackaging of principles that have been studied in economic theory before.

Re: A Beginner’s Guide to MMT

#57

A credentialed economist should put a stake through the heart of the heart of MMT. Two simple critiques: 1) Relative to a financial statement (i.e. budget), it is difficult to predict and measure inflation. This difficulty lowers the likelihood of government fiscal responsibility and increases the likelihood of devestating inflation. 2) A basic second-order effect: What happens when people realize transfer medium is…

> This difficulty lowers the likelihood of government fiscal responsibility and increases the likelihood of devestating inflation.

I share this worry too, but it's not like there's currently any political appetite for fiscal responsibility. I wonder if the threat of inflation and currency volatility would actually serve as better stick, than what we currently have which is continuing to run up a massive debt which will be terrible for our children?

Re: A Beginner’s Guide to MMT

#58
I think MMT is an interesting school of thought because the economy has been reacting in a way contrary to what the data suggests. We're in the tenth year of an economic expansion and wages are only just starting to increase -- and at a modest pace at that. The amount of inequality in our economy is not accurately represented in GDP or unemployment. You would think inflation would perk up this long into an expansion but since most of the gains have gone to the wealthy (who don't spend as much as their income as normal folk) the economy is not as dynamic as we thought it would be. Even with the recent tax cut the economy is only growing at 3%.

Combine these factors with the fact that there are at least three huge areas for government investment: health care, renewable energy, infrastructure. If you believe climate change is an existential threat to our society -- does it matter that we have a balanced budget while we try to tackle it? Especially if recent trends suggest that massive deficit spending WILL NOT cause an inflation catastrophe?

Re: A Beginner’s Guide to MMT

#59

A credentialed economist should put a stake through the heart of the heart of MMT. Two simple critiques: 1) Relative to a financial statement (i.e. budget), it is difficult to predict and measure inflation. This difficulty lowers the likelihood of government fiscal responsibility and increases the likelihood of devestating inflation. 2) A basic second-order effect: What happens when people realize transfer medium is…

Right, it seems like the problem is more political than economic. Point 2 obviously flows from point 1, so the argument is whether point 1 is valid or not.

In theory there might be viable ways to control inflation via taxes and other ways of soaking up extra money supply that's created by printing/spending. The implementation will be difficult though, especially if it's driven by a political process. Even if you initially start with something that has all the correct automatic adjustments built in (assume this is possible), there's always the risk that a new gov't breaks it.

I think that for a change in paradigm like this to be successful you'd need stronger guarantees that things would stay in place long term (similar to UBI actually).

Re: A Beginner’s Guide to MMT

#60
post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Presumably if we had work to be done we would have open positions for it. I don't follow the presumption. There's no shortage of work out there to be done, we just don't have the means to PAY for it under the current system. Now, you might not think MMT does either (in real terms), but the world is NOT short of work to be done. > Now we have to magic up jobs, which means diluting jobs other people currently do ...w…

> There's no shortage of work out there to be done Ok, I have to agree with this to a certain point as it’s an argument I find myself making in change resisting organizations. But the implication here is that there will always be no shortage of low end minimum wage work and that the best way to discover and assign that work is via a centralized means. So with a jobs guarantee we have to invent a government system tha…

> But the implication here is that there will always be no shortage of low end minimum wage work

I'm not following how that's implied?

I think the implication is that there's no shortage of work that has positive value but less positive value than people are willing to pay for it.

Anyway, the idea is that if the economy is in good shape and most people are employed then the gov't is providing fewer jobs. If you have more slack then the number of gov't jobs goes up as the gov't spends more money (i.e. pays the people it's employing) and so the balance between spending and production doesn't change, thus keeping inflation in check.

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