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Tesla sues former employees for allegedly stealing data, Autopilot source code

reuters.com

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Re: Tesla sues former employees for allegedly stealing data, Autopilot source code

#11

Post by ddoolin »

nwah1 wrote: post #5
ddoolin wrote: post #3

This might be unpopular here, but I kind of wish this and other similar systems were more open source, or even just shared between companies. If companies are going to be putting a system out there on the streets anyway, and Tesla's is comparatively more quality and perhaps thus safer (I'm not making a claim, just positing a hypothetical), then it would only be to everyone's benefit if every company didn't have to (o…

Open source tends to work great for re-implementing technology that is already understood. It tends not to work for exploratory research, since that requires risk and ingenuity, not a designed-by-committee approach. R&D of this sort is funded best with a strong profit motive, unless the government is willing to shell out for it.

I'm not disagreeing with you at all really (not sure I agree completely, either), which is why I see the need to approach cases like this (self-driving software sharing, not the specific theft of IP case at hand) a bit more specially. I don't have the solution, I just know that lives could potentially be at risk and if the only reason is profit motive, it kinda sucks. I know this happens in other places, too, but it's my opinion that the best safety should be the standard, not a premium.

EDIT: Lorkki's comment explains part of my thoughts on it well. Other companies subsidize open source project that exist at the core of their business. Is there a difference here other than scale? If so, what, and how would it change the situation?

Re: Tesla sues former employees for allegedly stealing data, Autopilot source code

#12

Post by cortesoft »

nwah1 wrote: post #5
ddoolin wrote: post #3

This might be unpopular here, but I kind of wish this and other similar systems were more open source, or even just shared between companies. If companies are going to be putting a system out there on the streets anyway, and Tesla's is comparatively more quality and perhaps thus safer (I'm not making a claim, just positing a hypothetical), then it would only be to everyone's benefit if every company didn't have to (o…

Open source tends to work great for re-implementing technology that is already understood. It tends not to work for exploratory research, since that requires risk and ingenuity, not a designed-by-committee approach. R&D of this sort is funded best with a strong profit motive, unless the government is willing to shell out for it.

> since that requires risk and ingenuity

That is great for many things, but for something like self-driving tech, it is already being used in cars on the road. This is not just experimental, it already has people's lives on the line. That is a lot of trust in something that is not available to be audited.

Re: Tesla sues former employees for allegedly stealing data, Autopilot source code

#13

Post by sigmar »

gamblor956 wrote: post #4

Tesla is suing former employees for stealing its logistics (warehousing, inventory control, etc.) trade secrets. Tesla has to show that Zoox is using the information the employees allegedly stole. In a nutshell, Tesla would have to show similarities between its logistics processes and Zoox's. ( https://www.fenwick.com/FenwickDocuments/Trade_Secrets_Prote... for a good summary) But given the shitshow that is Tesla's l…

>If anything, Zoox used the information allegedly taken from Tesla as an example of what not to do logistically, and trade secrets law doesn't let you sue for that.

Any other lawyer want to sound off on if this is right? Because it doesn't seem right. If I'm using stolen trade secrets to decide what not to do, I'm still making very good use of that information.

Edit: added "other" to first sentence since original commenter is a lawyer

Re: Tesla sues former employees for allegedly stealing data, Autopilot source code

#14

Post by Quenty »

dessant wrote: post #8
ddoolin wrote: post #3

This might be unpopular here, but I kind of wish this and other similar systems were more open source, or even just shared between companies. If companies are going to be putting a system out there on the streets anyway, and Tesla's is comparatively more quality and perhaps thus safer (I'm not making a claim, just positing a hypothetical), then it would only be to everyone's benefit if every company didn't have to (o…

There needs to be a shift in how proprietary technologies that have universal benefits for our society are viewed. It may be normal for a company to withold information to keep a competitive edge in a nascent industry, but it will also mean that their press releases lauding reduced death rates in their products will be double edged swords, unless they make the ethical decision to share their improvements with other p…

U.S. specific, but this is what the patent system was originally designed to solve, and is a power given to the U.S. government.

“To promote the progress of science and useful arts, by securing for limited times to authors and inventors the exclusive right to their respective writings and discoveries.“

Re: Tesla sues former employees for allegedly stealing data, Autopilot source code

#17

Post by hfxtovan »

dessant wrote: post #8
ddoolin wrote: post #3

This might be unpopular here, but I kind of wish this and other similar systems were more open source, or even just shared between companies. If companies are going to be putting a system out there on the streets anyway, and Tesla's is comparatively more quality and perhaps thus safer (I'm not making a claim, just positing a hypothetical), then it would only be to everyone's benefit if every company didn't have to (o…

There needs to be a shift in how proprietary technologies that have universal benefits for our society are viewed. It may be normal for a company to withold information to keep a competitive edge in a nascent industry, but it will also mean that their press releases lauding reduced death rates in their products will be double edged swords, unless they make the ethical decision to share their improvements with other p…

Similar to GPS

Re: Tesla sues former employees for allegedly stealing data, Autopilot source code

#18

Post by slg »

gamblor956 wrote: post #4

Tesla is suing former employees for stealing its logistics (warehousing, inventory control, etc.) trade secrets. Tesla has to show that Zoox is using the information the employees allegedly stole. In a nutshell, Tesla would have to show similarities between its logistics processes and Zoox's. ( https://www.fenwick.com/FenwickDocuments/Trade_Secrets_Prote... for a good summary) But given the shitshow that is Tesla's l…

This is a company that had enough spare parts laying around that they could build an entirely new assembly line out of them[1]. They are also notorious for making customers wait months for replacement parts [2]. Tesla has a lot of successes and a lot of valuable IP that competitors might want to steal. Logistics might be the last thing on my list of things worth stealing. Although I guess that doesn't necessarily mean that no one would try.

[1] - https://www.chicagotribune.com/classified/automotive/ct-tesl...

[2] - https://forums.tesla.com/forum/forums/tesla-replacement-part...

Re: Tesla sues former employees for allegedly stealing data, Autopilot source code

#19

Post by tfehring »

ddoolin wrote: post #3

This might be unpopular here, but I kind of wish this and other similar systems were more open source, or even just shared between companies. If companies are going to be putting a system out there on the streets anyway, and Tesla's is comparatively more quality and perhaps thus safer (I'm not making a claim, just positing a hypothetical), then it would only be to everyone's benefit if every company didn't have to (o…

I completely agree, but it would be hard to incentivize investors to pay for all of the developer time (and, in the case of autonomous vehicles, driver/vehicle time) needed to get the systems up and running without the potential for huge returns to equity.

As I see it, there are two ways to avoid the wasteful duplication of effort that we're seeing today: Either a private monopoly pays for it, or the government does. Both options (and the status quo) have their pros and cons, but I'd personally prefer that the government fund it - ideally, borrow to fund R&D now, and then pay off the debt through taxes on autonomous vehicles once they go live. In practice, we're definitely trending toward the first option, one implication of which is that open source is a pipe dream.

Re: Tesla sues former employees for allegedly stealing data, Autopilot source code

#20

Post by Konnstann »

sigmar wrote: post #13
gamblor956 wrote: post #4

Tesla is suing former employees for stealing its logistics (warehousing, inventory control, etc.) trade secrets. Tesla has to show that Zoox is using the information the employees allegedly stole. In a nutshell, Tesla would have to show similarities between its logistics processes and Zoox's. ( https://www.fenwick.com/FenwickDocuments/Trade_Secrets_Prote... for a good summary) But given the shitshow that is Tesla's l…

>If anything, Zoox used the information allegedly taken from Tesla as an example of what not to do logistically, and trade secrets law doesn't let you sue for that. Any other lawyer want to sound off on if this is right? Because it doesn't seem right. If I'm using stolen trade secrets to decide what not to do, I'm still making very good use of that information. Edit: added "other" to first sentence since original com…

It seems very difficult to prove that in a court of law. If you have a "smoking gun" then you probably don't need comparisons, but in the case where you don't have hard evidence proving similarity is much easier.
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