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UK Parliament petitions site crashes under traffic for petition to cancel Brexit

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Re: UK Parliament petitions site crashes under traffic for petition to cancel Brexit

#101
post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It was a proper referendum, not very comparable to easily game-able internet poll.

Not easy to game at all aye https://i.imgsir.com/RZKw.png I get what you're saying but this poll is to say "Please look at this further" not "Please instantly do this thing in the poll"

But haven't you Brits always been conflicted over the EU? I mean, significantly more than other nations? Looking at the big picture as an outsider (American), it's probably better that the UK leave the EU. The EU will be stronger and more united.

Even if Brexit doesn't destroy the UK economy[1], politicians everywhere in Europe (including the UK) would no longer be able to speak entirely in hypotheticals, which otherwise make it easy to string along the electorate as well as keep the electorate fickle. Brexit will finally realize the counterfactual that previously anybody and everybody could fabricate from whole cloth. Indeed, it'll also provide a much needed counterfactual in American political discourse and possibly elsewhere.

OTOH, I really like the suggestion in a comment to one of CGP Grey's Brexit videos: the UK and EU could simply ceremoniously reenact the Article 50 withdrawal notice and extension request every year on a new EU-wide holiday, Brexit Day. It provides substantially the same political catharsis, but in perpetuity. And it's perfectly consonant with English political culture more generally--anachronisms that not only bridge time but reconcile conservative and liberal political modalities.

Note: It's important that, at least theoretically, the ritual reenactment preserves the real threat of Brexit. Like with a roller coaster, the appetite for self-destruction cannot be sated without uncertainty.

[1] I mean, pro-Brexit activists were always dishonest and full of sh*t. Here's a mea culpa where an activist admits as much, even while continuing to lie to himself: https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/why-brexiteers-forgot-abo... But, honestly, who knows what will happen post Brexit. Short term dislocation for sure, but beyond that it's a fool's game to make hard predictions.

Re: UK Parliament petitions site crashes under traffic for petition to cancel Brexit

#102
post #79
post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The sheer stubbornness of Theresa May's position What do you mean? To me, it seems she's tried pretty much everything, but the parliament voted down most of the proposals... Edit: I have nothing but respect for her. She's literally the only person in the wide political spectrum in the UK that's willing to actually deal with this like a sensible adult, and she's been eating a ton of shit for it, barely complaining a…

I think she has handled this dreadfully. She should have built a parliamentary cross-party consensus on what option to pursue well before now. Her only negotiating tactic with parliament is pushing things up to the deadline and saying my deal or no deal. Read Matthew Parris' reports of her personality (e.g. [1]). He (a conservative journalist) says that almost everyone says she doesn't listen to anyone, speaks in sou…

> saying my deal or no deal

But consider it from a higher-level perspective. Had she done everything perfectly (for whatever definition of "perfect"), would anything be different? The EU is the "problem" here, not the UK parliament. The UK was never going to get what they wanted - free trade with no freedom of movement, nor no border between Ireland and Northern Ireland and no border between Norther Ireland and the main island. The only deal possible is something like Norway and Switzerland have.

And the reality is, that neither Tory nor Labour MPs want to remain (because of how the political system works in the UK), either fully (in the EU), or partially (outside of the EU and subject to EU rules). So they (predictably) vote against that (only possible) deal.

Edit: This was, of course, perfectly obvious to all politicians, which is why no one wanted to deal with it.

Re: UK Parliament petitions site crashes under traffic for petition to cancel Brexit

#103
post #45

I know much of UK wants to remain, and Brexit is a mess, with EU Japan-ification and inherent mismatch of fiscal policy with monetary policy b/c of sovereign states, maybe UK will ultimately come out ahead as economic free agent?

It is possible that, over a generation-scale timescale, there will be some benefits to the UK's position. I don't think that anybody can reasonably argue against that, simply because of the uncertainty of the distant future.

The problem with that: the EU/EFTA is a large economic and regulatory power, with which the majority of UK international trade occurs (60% of imports and 48% of exports). This is basically a consequence of both geographic and cultural proximity. The result is that UK regulatory and trade regimes will be heavily influenced by actions of the EU/EFTA market in terms of regulation and trade policy; the UK will need to remain closely aligned for the foreseeable future. This means that being "outside" that market introduces obvious inefficiencies and costs, with few indications of any economic benefits that may emerge.

Re: UK Parliament petitions site crashes under traffic for petition to cancel Brexit

#104
post #50

These petitions are almost always met with a boilerplate response. There was a recent one (which I can't find as the site's currently down) regarding Russian interference in the last UK election, with the government response being along the lines of "we don't know what you're talking about, move on". More on that here: https://www.reddit.com/r/unitedkingdom/comments/b2vmm0/gover... While the huge number of signings o…

I don't really understand how Paris has real protests almost every weekend, yet we're leaving the EU and we've just had a few marches. Marches do nothing, they're preplanned to cause minimal disruption, just make the people in them feel like they're doing something so that it doesn't go further than that. The march on Saturday needs to at least move off the preplanned route and actually cause some inconvenience.

I understand there are some blockades of motorways planned if Brexit is delayed. [1]

The fuel blockades of the early 2000's resulted in some significant political action, more than marches seem to have.

[1] https://www.bristolpost.co.uk/news/bristol-news/m4-m5-blocke...

Re: UK Parliament petitions site crashes under traffic for petition to cancel Brexit

#105
post #82
post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"half the country wants to leave" A slim majority of those who voted, several years ago, stirred up by masses of illegal propaganda, especially in the last days before the vote. Now after getting some idea of the reality, the tides look to have significantly changed. Current opinion polls are showing significant majority for remain.(61% in the last YouGov poll) (Also, it was 17 not 33)

According to The Economist, Feb 23, reporting on a YouGov survey in December, 49% support Remain, and that number hasn't changed much. However, the 51% who don't support Remain support a variety of different proposals. To me it seems highly unlikely that any particular proposal would beat Remain in a choice between those two options. Remain is the Condorcet winner. That "61%" is probably about right for what would yo…

Indeed, it was Remain vs multiple incompatible alternatives presented as one (and frequently misrepresented as a totally impossible pick and mix of these incompatible options).

Re: UK Parliament petitions site crashes under traffic for petition to cancel Brexit

#106
post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The sheer stubbornness of Theresa May's position What do you mean? To me, it seems she's tried pretty much everything, but the parliament voted down most of the proposals... Edit: I have nothing but respect for her. She's literally the only person in the wide political spectrum in the UK that's willing to actually deal with this like a sensible adult, and she's been eating a ton of shit for it, barely complaining a…

Perhaps if she hadn't called a pointless general election and then run one of the worst campaigns in living memory that ended up removing the Conservative majority requiring pandering to the DUP I might have some sympathy.

If she had thought strategically she might have held off on an election until closer to this moment and then she could have used the threat of an election, and the attendant annihilation at the polls, as a threat against the rebels to secure the key factor of party unity. Effective head-kicking is absolutely essential in these sorts of situations. May has ended up just making herself look weak again and again.

Re: UK Parliament petitions site crashes under traffic for petition to cancel Brexit

#108
post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The sheer stubbornness of Theresa May's position What do you mean? To me, it seems she's tried pretty much everything, but the parliament voted down most of the proposals... Edit: I have nothing but respect for her. She's literally the only person in the wide political spectrum in the UK that's willing to actually deal with this like a sensible adult, and she's been eating a ton of shit for it, barely complaining a…

She's tried everything except actual leadership. The reason her political career is over is that's she's an ineffective leader. These sorts of situations are the very definition of what leadership is for. The fact it's nigh an impossible situation is partly due to the path she has chosen and her relative incompetence in her job. You can feel for her and that's fine, but at the end of the day responsibility to get the…

What would have been a better path (honest question)?

Re: UK Parliament petitions site crashes under traffic for petition to cancel Brexit

#109
Damage has been done and all the EU institutions are on leave and won't come back. Even if UK delays the leave it won't save them from damage that has been done.

It's only the politicians now who are trying to save their reputation. Sadly, they are willing to sacrifice country well-being to remain be seen as heroes.

Britain already has "special status"[1] that was given to it in before referendum. No other country in EU has such a deal.

[1]https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-35622105

Re: UK Parliament petitions site crashes under traffic for petition to cancel Brexit

#110
post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree. But the statement "half the country wants to leave and half wants to stay" is still false.

Taken literally it is indeed false. But in democracies the percentages who want this or that are counted through voting. So technically, it is correct.

You ask 66 people today,

About 16 will have voted to leave, 16 to remain, 11 who didn't vote but could have, and 23 didn't get to vote because they were too young or aren't British citizens (even if they've lived here for 20 years and have British kids)

(based on 1 million births and deaths a year, with about 2:1 ratio of people dying voting leave (in line with surveys that the older you were the more likely you were to vote and the more likely you were to vote leave)

So about 24% would have voted to leave, 24% to remain, 17% didn't vote, 5% who can now vote but couldn't, and and 30% who still can't vote.

The problem is that only the views of the 24% that voted to leave, and arguably the 41% that voted leave or didn't vote, seem to matter.

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