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Petition: Revoke Article 50 and remain in the EU

petition.parliament.uk

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Re: Petition: Revoke Article 50 and remain in the EU

#11

Post by altairiumblue »

boyter wrote: post #3

Not the most popular view, but if after a referendum politicians can dither about for long enough to make things painful then say "Lets have a do over" whats the point of actually voting? The whole thing just feels like an assault on democracy. The popular vote was to leave. If you put it to the people, then do what they ask. You can probably ask to join again later. Was the vote done with imperfect information? Prob…

In general, you can't take a strictly advisory referendum with a win margin of a couple % to dictate your international policy for decades.

More specifically, when the winning side has committed campaign violations and the UK's own National Crime Agency has found illegal foreign interference, maybe you should investigate further instead of driving head on. If you ask me, this was the "assault on democracy", not the "do-over" approach as you wrote.

On do-overs - the Prime Minister is pushing to have a third vote on the exact same deal with the EU, after her proposal was rejected twice by the members in the course of a couple of weeks. So it's especially concerning when do-overs in parliament can happen until the government gets the desired result, while at the same time the people aren't given a chance to vote again and the outcome of the referendum is considered final.

Re: Petition: Revoke Article 50 and remain in the EU

#12

Post by x38iq84n »

meheleventyone wrote: post #8
boyter wrote: post #3

Not the most popular view, but if after a referendum politicians can dither about for long enough to make things painful then say "Lets have a do over" whats the point of actually voting? The whole thing just feels like an assault on democracy. The popular vote was to leave. If you put it to the people, then do what they ask. You can probably ask to join again later. Was the vote done with imperfect information? Prob…

The popular vote was to leave by a very narrow margin. But the vote was in no way binding. It’s also in hindsight been run against a background of law breaking and outright disinformation from the Leave campaign. Further public opinion has changed and it’s doubtful if a second more informed referendum would confirm the first. I can’t think of a truer assault on democracy than to ask a vague question once, accept one…

The government and the PM promised they would honor the result of the vote and carry it out. They sent a leaflet with this promise to every door in the UK. They vote may not be legally binding, but the government is morally obliged to carry it out.

The question was clear and circumstances of art. 50 were known ahead of the vote. People voted to Leave the EU, not to leave conditionally with a deal or in name only. Cameron explained what leaving the EU means - to leave its customs union and single market. Anything less than that is contemptuous of the voters.

Re: Petition: Revoke Article 50 and remain in the EU

#13

Post by benj111 »

boyter wrote: post #3

Not the most popular view, but if after a referendum politicians can dither about for long enough to make things painful then say "Lets have a do over" whats the point of actually voting? The whole thing just feels like an assault on democracy. The popular vote was to leave. If you put it to the people, then do what they ask. You can probably ask to join again later. Was the vote done with imperfect information? Prob…

The problem is, what does 'leave' actually mean? Before the referendum a range of options were discussed. We could have soft Brexit, hard Brexit, we could stay in the single market and end freedom of movement. I don't ever recall a no deal Brexit being seriously mooted as an option.

Fast forward to December 2018, the PM has what is basically a hard Brexit option on the table, everything Brexiteers should want. It was negotiated without input from parliament, and then presented as a fait accompli. It failed to pass, it part due to Brexiteers who want an even more extreme Brexit. It was voted on again with minimal changes and still failed.

As things stand an indicative vote rejecting a no deal had been passed, that seemingly has been ignored by the PM. An indicative vote, that if the deal wasn't agreed by parliament by today, a longer (past 30th June) delay should be asked for. Again ignored by the PM. The PM hasn't held any indicative votes on what parliament would support, was on TV complaining about MPs that she expects to support her deal last night.

Shes been playing party politics, chasing the votes of her own extremist Brexiteers, rather than looking around and talking to the opposition, who are united on at least a softer Brexit.

The failure of democracy at this point is of the PMs making (and the labour leader isn't any better), and nothing to do with the referendum.

Re: Petition: Revoke Article 50 and remain in the EU

#14

Post by BFLpL0QNek »

Unless it gets 17.5+ million votes, it'll likely just get referred back to https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/239706#debate-thres.... It'll be interesting to see the response if it does gets 17.5+ votes even if not an official validated poll. Got my vote anyway, miracles may happen.

Whatever happens, the UK is a divided, broken country and will be for some time. It'll take years to finally come through and fix the damage regardless of the outcome of Brexit.

Re: Petition: Revoke Article 50 and remain in the EU

#15

Post by meheleventyone »

x38iq84n wrote: post #12
meheleventyone wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The popular vote was to leave by a very narrow margin. But the vote was in no way binding. It’s also in hindsight been run against a background of law breaking and outright disinformation from the Leave campaign. Further public opinion has changed and it’s doubtful if a second more informed referendum would confirm the first. I can’t think of a truer assault on democracy than to ask a vague question once, accept one…

The government and the PM promised they would honor the result of the vote and carry it out. They sent a leaflet with this promise to every door in the UK. They vote may not be legally binding, but the government is morally obliged to carry it out. The question was clear and circumstances of art. 50 were known ahead of the vote. People voted to Leave the EU, not to leave conditionally with a deal or in name only. Cam…

And as the corruption of the Leave campaign was exposed plus the promises of easy negotiations vanished the government was morally obliged to renegotiate with a British public that appears to have changed its mind. Particularly now the actual terms of leaving and their consequences are more clear. Not drive the UK off a cliff.

Re: Petition: Revoke Article 50 and remain in the EU

#16

Post by benj111 »

altairiumblue wrote: post #11
boyter wrote: post #3

Not the most popular view, but if after a referendum politicians can dither about for long enough to make things painful then say "Lets have a do over" whats the point of actually voting? The whole thing just feels like an assault on democracy. The popular vote was to leave. If you put it to the people, then do what they ask. You can probably ask to join again later. Was the vote done with imperfect information? Prob…

In general, you can't take a strictly advisory referendum with a win margin of a couple % to dictate your international policy for decades. More specifically, when the winning side has committed campaign violations and the UK's own National Crime Agency has found illegal foreign interference, maybe you should investigate further instead of driving head on. If you ask me, this was the "assault on democracy", not the "…

"do-overs"

Yes it really is quite stunning, how the PM can divine such a specific meaning from one openly worded vote to the people. But can't seem to understand 600+ MPs all shouting at her "No" repeatedly for the last X months.

PM to the nation (last night). "you have spoken and I have heard you"

PM to MPs: "wrong answer last time, lets try this again"

Re: Petition: Revoke Article 50 and remain in the EU

#18

Post by benj111 »

x38iq84n wrote: post #12
meheleventyone wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The popular vote was to leave by a very narrow margin. But the vote was in no way binding. It’s also in hindsight been run against a background of law breaking and outright disinformation from the Leave campaign. Further public opinion has changed and it’s doubtful if a second more informed referendum would confirm the first. I can’t think of a truer assault on democracy than to ask a vague question once, accept one…

The government and the PM promised they would honor the result of the vote and carry it out. They sent a leaflet with this promise to every door in the UK. They vote may not be legally binding, but the government is morally obliged to carry it out. The question was clear and circumstances of art. 50 were known ahead of the vote. People voted to Leave the EU, not to leave conditionally with a deal or in name only. Cam…

"Cameron explained what leaving the EU means - to leave its customs union and single market"

Which was written off as project fear.

We were told we could have any relationship we wanted with Europe. The one thing I don't recall being suggested, was a no deal Brexit, as the 'true' Brexiteers now seem to want.

The question was unfortunately not clear, which is why we are in this mess. It was predicated on remain winning. The leave vote wasn't for anything, it was against the EU. That just excludes one specific relationship.

Re: Petition: Revoke Article 50 and remain in the EU

#19

Post by benj111 »

black-tea wrote: post #17
TabbedFonzo wrote: post #5

The UK map of those who signed the petition: https://petitionmap.unboxedconsulting.com/?petition=241584

Cambridge, London, Bristol. The same people who voted to stay. What a surprise.

Poor inner cities voted Labour, posh country areas voted Conservative. What a surprise.

It isn't the hard core that win elections, its the swing voters. So no it isn't a surprise, and it isn't really relevant.

Re: Petition: Revoke Article 50 and remain in the EU

#20

Post by kstenerud »

boyter wrote: post #3

Not the most popular view, but if after a referendum politicians can dither about for long enough to make things painful then say "Lets have a do over" whats the point of actually voting? The whole thing just feels like an assault on democracy. The popular vote was to leave. If you put it to the people, then do what they ask. You can probably ask to join again later. Was the vote done with imperfect information? Prob…

The UK uses representative democracy, not direct democracy. The referendum was a silly exercise from the start. May has to go through with it, not for legally binding reasons, but because her political future depends on it.

What's been happening this past week is political maneuvering into "our only remaining option is a delay", long enough for everyone to get tired of it all, such that they can rescind article 50 quietly, and everyone can save face or be out of politics by the time it comes to a head. It's volatile because everyone involved is trying to save their own skin (or getting sick of the bullshit), thus the fireworks.

This petition, if successful, will provide more confusion ammunition to help keep the waters muddy enough that nobody does anything decisive, which is exactly the right thing to do.

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