After 6 months of working fine, Tesla software update drives at barriers again • Hacker News Board

Re: After 6 months of working fine, Tesla software update drives at barriers again

#291

Post by jrs95 » Thu, Mar 21, 2019, 5:27 AM UTC

slg wrote: post #106

SilasX wrote: post #7

I would be a lot more forgiving of these screwups if Tesla didn't constantly swear up and down that they've solved self-driving cars. As far back as 2016 they were claiming they had full SDC capability above human driver safety [1], and their recent Model Y announcement suggests that the only thing holding it up is regulatory approval, and not failure to achieve the desired spec. >Model Y will have Full Self-Driving…

I don't want to dismiss your whole point, because it is certainly valid, but that isn't really the issue here. It is entirely possible for bugs like this to exist in the self driving tech and for Tesla to be correct in their claims that Autopilot is on average safer than a human driver. It is obviously troubling to see self driving cars run into solid and stationary objects, but human drivers do that all the time too…

It may be better than humans on average, but is it safer than a sober person who is driving responsibly in a similarly priced vehicle? Anecdotally, most accidents I've seen have been caused by at least one driver doing some stupid shit. Based on my own personal experiences, I'm just not comfortable surrending control of my vehicle. Especially not when we could be comparing apples to oranges. Safety of a self driving system should be evaluated against currently available safety technologies like blind spot detection etc. If you're including older vehicles that don't have the best possible non-self driving technology in your data, you're making a comparison that is inherently biased in favor of self driving cars.

All that being said, I do think self driving is what we will inevitably arrive at...we just need to have a higher degree of confidence in it before it's widely used in my opinion.

Re: After 6 months of working fine, Tesla software update drives at barriers again

#292

Post by nradov » Thu, Mar 21, 2019, 5:57 AM UTC

fmpwizard wrote: post #268

slg wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't want to dismiss your whole point, because it is certainly valid, but that isn't really the issue here. It is entirely possible for bugs like this to exist in the self driving tech and for Tesla to be correct in their claims that Autopilot is on average safer than a human driver. It is obviously troubling to see self driving cars run into solid and stationary objects, but human drivers do that all the time too…

> see self driving cars run into solid and stationary objects, but human drivers do that all the time too. Human drivers who are distracted do that all the time, AP is supposed to avoid that, it is supposed to be alert all the time, but when it sees a stationary object, the result of their algo is, "it must be a sign we can somehow go through" We need to make it very clear that self driving cars are better than drivi…

There are currently no self driving cars which a drunk or exhausted person could operate with an acceptable level of safety.

Re: After 6 months of working fine, Tesla software update drives at barriers again

#293

Post by Haga » Thu, Mar 21, 2019, 6:06 AM UTC

slg wrote: post #106

SilasX wrote: post #7

I would be a lot more forgiving of these screwups if Tesla didn't constantly swear up and down that they've solved self-driving cars. As far back as 2016 they were claiming they had full SDC capability above human driver safety [1], and their recent Model Y announcement suggests that the only thing holding it up is regulatory approval, and not failure to achieve the desired spec. >Model Y will have Full Self-Driving…

I don't want to dismiss your whole point, because it is certainly valid, but that isn't really the issue here. It is entirely possible for bugs like this to exist in the self driving tech and for Tesla to be correct in their claims that Autopilot is on average safer than a human driver. It is obviously troubling to see self driving cars run into solid and stationary objects, but human drivers do that all the time too…

Nn tech debt.

Re: After 6 months of working fine, Tesla software update drives at barriers again

#294

Post by techcode » Thu, Mar 21, 2019, 6:15 AM UTC

rayiner wrote: post #251

0815test wrote: post #210

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You do have to hold the wheel, precisely because you might find yourself having to assess what the car is doing "in a split second", and possibly issue corrective actions. You can't do that unless you are holding the wheel and are paying attention to what the car is doing! But all that means is that the car is not really driving itself; it is however dealing with the boring, predictable parts of the job and leaving t…

The boring predictable parts of driving (lane keeping and speed keeping) are already basically unconscious muscle memory. It’s watching others for surprises that takes the mental energy.

Exactly - though speed keeping is nice for long road-trips simply not to get foot cramps.

Anyway, I'm yet to see a video of Tesla doing emergency breaks because of highway pileup where it's not only a couple of seconds after human driver could see a row of red breaking lights in front.

Re: After 6 months of working fine, Tesla software update drives at barriers again

#295

Post by [deleted] » Thu, Mar 21, 2019, 6:17 AM UTC

goshx wrote: post #287

carlivar wrote: post #279

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And if your trip on autopilot is 99.9% reliable, how would you feel about that stat? Do you find yourself paying attention to the road context the entire time? I'm curious if your mental acuity has dropped over time as the car has driven you.

You start trusting it more as you use it and learn its flaws, so you can anticipate when it may do something stupid. I pay attention the entire time, but it is a much more relaxed experience. I’d still pay attention the entire time even if it were supposedly 100%. It is very sad that a lot of people in this forum are hoping this never works. It is one of the most exciting advancements in technology that can benefit u…

[deleted]

Re: After 6 months of working fine, Tesla software update drives at barriers again

#296

Post by avs733 » Thu, Mar 21, 2019, 6:28 AM UTC

eropple wrote: post #284

mindslight wrote: post #267

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Don't you mean selling a weeding tool as a "flame thrower" ?

What you describe would be a disappointment. What he describe would be life-threatening.

Thank you for the assist.

Re: After 6 months of working fine, Tesla software update drives at barriers again

#297

Post by nitrogen » Thu, Mar 21, 2019, 6:33 AM UTC

eropple wrote: post #284

mindslight wrote: post #267

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Don't you mean selling a weeding tool as a "flame thrower" ?

What you describe would be a disappointment. What he describe would be life-threatening.

Flamethrowers are regularly used as weeding tools though. The best way to kill weeds on the edge of a field or a ditch is to burn them.

Re: After 6 months of working fine, Tesla software update drives at barriers again

#298

Post by 101001001001 » Thu, Mar 21, 2019, 6:43 AM UTC

I still want a model 3. I’ll just not use the autopilot.

Re: After 6 months of working fine, Tesla software update drives at barriers again

#299

Post by tbabb » Thu, Mar 21, 2019, 6:52 AM UTC

goshx wrote: post #289

eric-hu wrote: post #286

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is the comment thread beginning with "Musk claims 2020 for sleep while the car drives". I think the point of this discussion is that Musk, has been implying that.

I’m pretty sure it is still 2019.

And you're expecting reliability to improve by a factor of ten million before 2020?

Re: After 6 months of working fine, Tesla software update drives at barriers again

#300

Post by gregknicholson » Thu, Mar 21, 2019, 7:25 AM UTC

disiplus wrote: post #139

slg wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't want to dismiss your whole point, because it is certainly valid, but that isn't really the issue here. It is entirely possible for bugs like this to exist in the self driving tech and for Tesla to be correct in their claims that Autopilot is on average safer than a human driver. It is obviously troubling to see self driving cars run into solid and stationary objects, but human drivers do that all the time too…

i would not take those chances. if the self driving car is only slightly better then average driver in fatal accidents that's not good enough. most of accidents happen because of distractions (texting and so on) and if a self driving car is only slightly better then average driver I can get a lot better if I just don't use my smartphone while driving and don't sit behind a wheel tired. so it's not enough to be better…

I wouldn't trust my life to proprietary software, because its makers' motives obviously don't align with my own. If my safety was really paramount, they'd open their software to scrutiny.

It's unethical to leave life-and-death decisions to a black-box algorithm, when I know it was written for the primary purpose of gathering more money. Safety is a constraint, not their goal.