Live data from Hacker News

Google hit with €1.5B fine from EU over advertising

bbc.com

371–380 of 414 posts

Re: Google hit with €1.5B fine from EU over advertising

#371
post #362

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Measuring the "content on the page" is hopelessly ambiguous and easy to scam. Even trying to price just based on how many other ad networks there are is problematic. For each additional ad network the value of each ad goes down. Even adding a second one may cut the value more than in half compared to exclusivity, because if the user sees the other network's ads first and they don't appear relevant they may not even l…

>Measuring the "content on the page" is hopelessly ambiguous and easy to scam. Is it? It seems pretty simple to audit your 10,000 largest ad-spend domains and check to see if they're actually just ad fraud. You'd need maybe 300 person-hours to do so, at an overhead-in cost of, let's high-ball it, 100$/hr, which puts you at a cost of $30,000. If you mean the process is impossible to automate, then don't try to automat…

> It seems pretty simple to audit your 10,000 largest ad-spend domains and check to see if they're actually just ad fraud. You'd need maybe 300 person-hours to do so, at an overhead-in cost of, let's high-ball it, 100$/hr, which puts you at a cost of $30,000.

You're figuring 10k domains in 300 hours, or 1.8min per domain. It's way more expensive than this, and it's an adversarial system. If you have rules about how spammy a site can be and still show your ads many sites are going to try and get as close to the boundary as possible without going over. This means it takes substantial effort to figure out which side of it they're on.

Then, the spammier sites run many different domains with multiple accounts, which means they're not that likely to show up as top domains. Spammy sites also can "cloak" so they show up one way to a reviewer at the ad network and another way to a real site visitor.

Manual inspection is definitely a valuable tool, and is something that ad networks use, but that a process like you described would catch 99% of fraud is massively optimistic.

(Disclosure: I work at Google on ad stuff, but not this sort of ad stuff. Speaking for myself and not the company.)

Re: Google hit with €1.5B fine from EU over advertising

#372
When will people realize that these fines are a ponzi scheme and a power grab of the EU? What has the EU done for me? Nothing. What has Google done for me? I watch Youtube, browse in Chrome, run Android, use the Playstore, program Go... The list goes on and on. If anything, the EU should pay money to Google because Google gets shit done and the EU doesn't.

Re: Google hit with €1.5B fine from EU over advertising

#373
post #362

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Measuring the "content on the page" is hopelessly ambiguous and easy to scam. Even trying to price just based on how many other ad networks there are is problematic. For each additional ad network the value of each ad goes down. Even adding a second one may cut the value more than in half compared to exclusivity, because if the user sees the other network's ads first and they don't appear relevant they may not even l…

>Measuring the "content on the page" is hopelessly ambiguous and easy to scam. Is it? It seems pretty simple to audit your 10,000 largest ad-spend domains and check to see if they're actually just ad fraud. You'd need maybe 300 person-hours to do so, at an overhead-in cost of, let's high-ball it, 100$/hr, which puts you at a cost of $30,000. If you mean the process is impossible to automate, then don't try to automat…

> It seems pretty simple to audit your 10,000 largest ad-spend domains and check to see if they're actually just ad fraud.

It's not just a matter of fraud. The website could be CNN, but if they're filling their pages with a thousand different ads, none of the individual ads is going to be worth paying for, even if the page also contains legitimate content.

And the thing that's impossible to measure is content volume. If you have one morsel on the page that drives traffic to it, you can easily add arbitrarily more to the bottom that is arguably "content" in order to make the ratio of ads to "content" be whatever you like. At that point you're trying to measure content quality, which is inherently subjective.

> The comparison you're making in the last paragraph is a common mistake in examining competition scenarios. The comparison isn't between pricing between the market leader and the incumbents following the anti-competitive behavior. It's the comparison between the prices we would have had no anti-competitive behavior existed in the first place.

That's not what I'm saying.

Suppose we do a test. If a page has one ad on it, 0.5% of page visitors buy the product. If it has two ads on it, 0.2% of page visitors buy each advertiser's product, because the extra clutter causes people to pay less attention to both of them.

So then your ad network prices that way. If the site puts your ad on their page with no others, you pay them 5 credits. If they put your ad on their page with someone else's, you pay 2 credits. If they want to use three ad networks then you pay 1 credit and it goes down from there. Just paying proportional to the value of the ad to the advertiser.

Now nobody is going to put two ad networks on the page, because they'd get 2 credits from each ad network (total of 4) instead of getting 5 credits from one. Even if it was 4 vs. 2, you might as well save yourself the transaction costs of using the second network.

The reason exclusivity is worth more isn't that there is less competition so you can charge more, it's that if you clutter up the page with more ads, their value falls off faster than their volume makes up for it.

Moreover, suppose that isn't the case. Showing more ads would produce more value, at least until some threshold number of ads is shown. Then the first ad network would just offer to display more ads on your page and pay you appropriately more for them.

You still end up with only one ad network -- whichever one will pay you the most per unit. The only way two ad networks end up on the same page is by reaching the point that the highest paying ad network knows showing more ads won't produce more advertiser value, and then scamming them by showing more anyway.

Re: Google hit with €1.5B fine from EU over advertising

#374
post #371
post #362

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Measuring the "content on the page" is hopelessly ambiguous and easy to scam. Is it? It seems pretty simple to audit your 10,000 largest ad-spend domains and check to see if they're actually just ad fraud. You'd need maybe 300 person-hours to do so, at an overhead-in cost of, let's high-ball it, 100$/hr, which puts you at a cost of $30,000. If you mean the process is impossible to automate, then don't try to automat…

> It seems pretty simple to audit your 10,000 largest ad-spend domains and check to see if they're actually just ad fraud. You'd need maybe 300 person-hours to do so, at an overhead-in cost of, let's high-ball it, 100$/hr, which puts you at a cost of $30,000. You're figuring 10k domains in 300 hours, or 1.8min per domain. It's way more expensive than this, and it's an adversarial system. If you have rules about how s…

>It's way more expensive than this, and it's an adversarial system

Sure, but I've overstated the hourly costs by an order of magnitude. You can get body shops to do this work very inexpensively.

Making a call as to whether or not they're over the line isn't difficult; you flag the clear bullshit calls and leave the borderline ones after making the contractual terms more conservative than your in practice review would accept.

>Then, the spammier sites run many different domains with multiple accounts, which means they're not that likely to show up as top domains

Sure, but we both know your distribution of revenue isn't difficult to parse, nor is auditing methodology difficult.

We have active fraudsters at the top of the iOS and Play stores. The issue isn't that you don't know how best to cast the net to grab everyone. It's that you don't cast it at all to grab anyone.

>but that a process like you described would catch 99% of fraud is massively optimistic.

Not really. Most fraudsters are terrible. Sure a few will slip through the cracks, but that's the case in every industry. That's not an excuse to do nothing. It's especially not an excuse when the dichotomy being pushed here is that the difficulty underlies a need for illegal anti-competitive behavior.

Re: Google hit with €1.5B fine from EU over advertising

#375

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What do you mean "take care of them"? If they're not allowed to restrict you from displaying their ads next to ads from other networks, that's the exact thing the spammy websites were doing.

They can simply decide to pull their ads and not do business with websites that spam ads, if they think that's detrimental to them or doesn't provide them any value. Exclusivity contracts give way too much power to Google at the expense of everyone else, if we could simply leave it to Google to decide which websites they want to place advertisements on. It's like having a retail electronics store placing bad products…

How is refusing to do business with anyone who doesn't give you de facto exclusivity any different than requiring de jure exclusivity?

Re: Google hit with €1.5B fine from EU over advertising

#376

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People on HN ask this question every time that the subject comes up, and I'm a bit confused as to whether it's genuine curiosity, or whether it's meant to show that breaking up Google would be impractical. I don't know much about the internal structure of Google, but my naïve intuition is that it could be broken up into several profitable companies relatively easily a whole a bunch of different ways, given how many d…

Wouldn't breaking up Google into companies with complete control over their respective markets not really achieve the desired goal? E.g. If Android becomes it's own company, it's still the only player in the mobile operating system space. If search was it's own company, it's still the dominant search engine. Admittedly, I wasn't around at the time, but what use was breaking up Ma-bell into the sub companies, from a c…

> Wouldn't breaking up Google into companies with complete control over their respective markets not really achieve the desired goal?

As I understand, the desired goal is to stop the dominant player in one domain (search) from getting an unfair competitive advantage in another (advertising backends). It might also be true that allowing one company to have complete dominance in a particular domain stifles competition within that domain, but that's a seperate problem.

> Admittedly, I wasn't around at the time, but what use was breaking up Ma-bell into the sub companies, from a choice perspective? I certainly understand that from a telephony devices perspective, consumer choice drastically increased, since third parties could now make telephones, but you still ended up with local monopolies for all of the fractured components.

I know nothing at all about this particular topic, but I have two immediate thoughts:

1. It would be easier to break a monopoly held by a company that made just one component, because once you finished your replacement for that component, you'd be able to ship a product, whereas if one company had a monopoly on every component, you'd need to make replacements for every component.

2. I don't find "It might stay just as bad as it is now" to be a very strong criticism if the alternative is doing nothing.

> Also, how is search's integration into other products harmful in all circumstances? It's extremely convenient that typing the name of a restaurant into Google search gives me reviews, the menu, directions, etc.

Sure, but Duckduckgo does those things as well and doesn't own any products that do those things. Whereas there are some google products that seem really tightly coupled, like Drive and Docs that I can't really imagine working as well if they came from different companies. As for harming consumers, I was mostly thinking about search data → advertising.

Re: Google hit with €1.5B fine from EU over advertising

#377
post #357

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A fine is a price -- exactly. So why are you trying to deter them from doing something which they're willing to pay you more to let them do than it costs you to let them do it? Or if the fine would be lower for some other company with less money, then why are you willing to let that other company pay less to do it than it costs you to let them do it?

The daycare owner didn't want $10, he wanted to go home at 4pm. You're missing the forest for the trees.

> The daycare owner didn't want $10, he wanted to go home at 4pm.

Then he should have set the late fee to as much as the amount he wanted to go home earlier. Which would still be the same amount for every parent regardless of how much money they had, because which parent is late has nothing to do with how much he values not being able to go home on time.

Re: Google hit with €1.5B fine from EU over advertising

#378

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Arguments by analogy are an excellent way to compose an argument. Socrates built entire ethical systems using analogy.

You only have to look at what we have above, a changing of the subject from corporate punishment to...execution for marijuana possession. That is bad community'ing. As an aside, I've got some bad news about how Socrates' method worked out for him.

>> Because we can't close corporations for a rules violation.

> I mean we could

The post I was replying to talked about “closing” a corporation for a rule violation. Closing a company is akin to “killing” it, not “punishing” it. I think the analogy stands.

Re: Google hit with €1.5B fine from EU over advertising

#379
post #331

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As far as I know, Android is open source and any OEM is free to use it without asking permission. The licensing program is for the right to install proprietary Google apps like the Play Store or Google Maps. There are plenty of Chinese OEMs who aren't licensed and sell phones without the Play store.

The code is open source but "Android" is trademarked. You can't call it an "Android" phone unless Google lets you.

Not necessarily -- trademark infringement requires an element of deception or confusion, not just any usage of the mark.

If an OEM sold a phone with a stock AOSP build, I think they'd be fine with calling it "Android" without permission. Google might attempt to enforce their mark anyway, but they wouldn't have much of a case.

If the phone ran a fork like LineageOS, the OEM would need to be more careful about their use of the mark, but I imagine they'd still be okay with language like "Android-based".

Re: Google hit with €1.5B fine from EU over advertising

#380

The EU feels to me like one of the few forces for good in the world at the moment

naw. just a giant nationstate trying to control its own resources. theres nothing good about it. at best you could argue its neutral. Personally i see this as nothing more than the occasional revenue dipping. Big companies have to take it because of the market and the eu knows this. anytime theyre short on funds theyll fine facebook or google.
Post reply on HN