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Google hit with €1.5B fine from EU over advertising

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Re: Google hit with €1.5B fine from EU over advertising

#361

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And I thought I was "paying" for that by having 15 minutes long "ads" thrown at me every for every 5 minutes of content I watch. YouTube seems to be getting really bad in that regard, even worse than TV.

Block the ads. You have every right to do so. There is zero obligation to watch ads. If a company like Google can afford to operate a service like YouTube, then putting it up in the first place is the cost of doing business. I happily block ads on all devices I use and am in control over, even at work. Pi-hole, uBlock Origin (even kills the adblock detectors), Privacy Badger, Decentraleyes, Tracking Token Stripper, W…

Haven't found a good way to do that on my tablet (iPad), yet. I have tried adding known ad-networks to my router-blocklist, it does not seem to impact YouTube at all.

I guess I really gotta look into building myself a Pi-hole.

Re: Google hit with €1.5B fine from EU over advertising

#362
post #335

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If an ad network wants to put restrictions on the volume of ad space in comparison with content on the page, they can do so, but requiring exclusivity isn't the same thing as that.

Measuring the "content on the page" is hopelessly ambiguous and easy to scam. Even trying to price just based on how many other ad networks there are is problematic. For each additional ad network the value of each ad goes down. Even adding a second one may cut the value more than in half compared to exclusivity, because if the user sees the other network's ads first and they don't appear relevant they may not even l…

>Measuring the "content on the page" is hopelessly ambiguous and easy to scam.

Is it?

It seems pretty simple to audit your 10,000 largest ad-spend domains and check to see if they're actually just ad fraud. You'd need maybe 300 person-hours to do so, at an overhead-in cost of, let's high-ball it, 100$/hr, which puts you at a cost of $30,000.

If you mean the process is impossible to automate, then don't try to automate it. You can catch 99% of fraud with very low-effort manual review in most industries. That Google doesn't do it doesn't speak to the inability to get it done. It speaks to their unwillingness.

In short: exclusivity is there to choke out other ad networks.

>If the price offered for any non-exclusive placement is more of a reduction over the price offered for exclusivity than the amount gained from the other ad network(s), how is that any different in practice than requiring exclusivity?

The comparison you're making in the last paragraph is a common mistake in examining competition scenarios. The comparison isn't between pricing between the market leader and the incumbents following the anti-competitive behavior. It's the comparison between the prices we would have had no anti-competitive behavior existed in the first place.

Re: Google hit with €1.5B fine from EU over advertising

#363

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your argument is predicated on the fact that ‘they must be done’. I disagree.

Almost every meaningful human endeavor will result in some human deaths from time to time. A position of zero harm closely resembles a position of zero progress.

Could anyone down voting provide counter examples? I propose no one reading this could even produce the devices we're typing on without mining, handling and transporting hazardous materials, and using heavy equipment which will occasionally result in an unfortunate human death and or harm to the environment.

Re: Google hit with €1.5B fine from EU over advertising

#364

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's a bit misleading because the EU we know today wasn't actually around back when the USSR was still a thing. It only became fully realized with the Maastricht Treaty in 1992, which was shortly after the fall of the USSR in 1991.

Was it responsible for the 45 years of peace after WW2 or not?

The EU? It very likely did its fair share for making that a reality.

But I wouldn't go as far as claiming it's solely responsible for it because rarely anything is as simple as that.

Re: Google hit with €1.5B fine from EU over advertising

#365
post #264

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How do you propose that Google should be split?

People on HN ask this question every time that the subject comes up, and I'm a bit confused as to whether it's genuine curiosity, or whether it's meant to show that breaking up Google would be impractical. I don't know much about the internal structure of Google, but my naïve intuition is that it could be broken up into several profitable companies relatively easily a whole a bunch of different ways, given how many d…

Wouldn't breaking up Google into companies with complete control over their respective markets not really achieve the desired goal?

E.g. If Android becomes it's own company, it's still the only player in the mobile operating system space. If search was it's own company, it's still the dominant search engine.

Admittedly, I wasn't around at the time, but what use was breaking up Ma-bell into the sub companies, from a choice perspective? I certainly understand that from a telephony devices perspective, consumer choice drastically increased, since third parties could now make telephones, but you still ended up with local monopolies for all of the fractured components.

Also, how is search's integration into other products harmful in all circumstances? It's extremely convenient that typing the name of a restaurant into Google search gives me reviews, the menu, directions, etc.

Re: Google hit with €1.5B fine from EU over advertising

#366
post #340
post #322

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Google isn't a single person. They're already more likely violate some laws and regulations just because they're so big. You can't double dip by treating every small infraction like it's a huge company-wide problem.

Too Big To Be Accountable ??????

Since when does accountable mean being fined over $1 billion? It is beyond absurd. If Waymo gets a speeding ticket in Europe, should it also be for $1 billion? At least the speed limit is a clearly defined rule. Selectively enforcing an arbitrary definition of "anticompetitive" is not.

Re: Google hit with €1.5B fine from EU over advertising

#367

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Why? Because if you make $200k a year, a $50 fine isn't a big deal, at all, but if you barely scrape by, $50 could break your budget for the month. That makes no sense. If you're stealing $50 then a $150 fine is a deterrent even if you're a billionaire, because the expected value if you're caught is -$100, which has nothing at all to do with how much money you have. And if that caused the billionaire to not care, t…

There is an argument for indexing fines to income or net worth for people too (in addition to severity of the crime) -- if you want to stop a behavior, for example speeding, it doesn't make sense to set the fine equal for everybody unless wealth distribution in society is remarkably flat, so the marginal value of lost money is similar for everybody. If you don't index for ability to pay you just create a separate set…

> There is an argument for indexing fines to income or net worth for people too (in addition to severity of the crime) -- if you want to stop a behavior, for example speeding, it doesn't make sense to set the fine equal for everybody unless wealth distribution in society is remarkably flat, so the marginal value of lost money is similar for everybody. If you don't index for ability to pay you just create a separate set of laws for different classes of people.

The issue is that stopping the behavior is committing to a bad abstraction.

Cars can kill people even below the speed limit. If you drive faster, the probability goes up. That is an externality, because you put others in danger in addition to yourself, regardless of which speed it is. In principle what you ought to do is price the externality. You create some amount of risk by driving a mile at 50MPH, so you're charged a proportional amount for that. The risk created by driving at 70MPH is more, so the charge should be higher, proportional to the higher risk.

But that would require monitoring the speed that every car drives every mile and billing for it. Until recently that wasn't even plausible and even now it would be a huge privacy invasion. So instead we settle on choosing some speed, ignoring the cost of anyone driving slower than that even if its true cost is non-zero, and whacking anyone who drives faster with a disproportionate fine to compensate for most instances going undetected.

Committing to deterring all speeding at any cost is completely ignoring why we're doing this to begin with. We don't need to eliminate all risk -- that would imply eliminating all cars and other vehicles and in practice isn't possible even then.

What we need is to throttle the risk so that it remains at a manageable level. Which is exactly what pricing it does. That's true whether you're doing meticulous risk accounting or using blunt stochastic methods like speeding fines.

And when you price something, rich people buy more of it because they have more money. If the price you've assigned to the risk is actually proportional to the cost being imposed by taking it, you really don't need to stop them. Just let them pay for the risk in money. Then use the money to pay for safety improvements or compensate victims or whatever you like -- if the amount they're paying is properly proportional to the risk then you come out better off this way than by actually deterring them.

> This is basically the same argument as for progressive taxation.

The argument for progressive taxation is that we're not trying to discourage behavior and the rich are better able to pay, so charging them more will have less detrimental effect because it will have a lower impact on their consumption. It's more about taxing the poor less than taxing the rich more.

Re: Google hit with €1.5B fine from EU over advertising

#368

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Arguments by analogy are not worth anybody's time.

Arguments by analogy are an excellent way to compose an argument. Socrates built entire ethical systems using analogy.

You only have to look at what we have above, a changing of the subject from corporate punishment to...execution for marijuana possession. That is bad community'ing.

As an aside, I've got some bad news about how Socrates' method worked out for him.

Re: Google hit with €1.5B fine from EU over advertising

#369
post #161

This is not for AdSense on Google.com, this is for third-party sites with a search feature showing search ads to their own customers. A third-party site who wants to show ads in their own search results could partner with Google to include AdSense ads in their own results. The Google contract originally required exclusivity, and then was changed to require Google ads to be more prominent. In the context of the market…

As long as the punishment for the crime is less than the crime itself, crime will perpetuate. If you steal 1.000,00€ from a bank, they don't fine you 1€. No. They send you to jail for years.

> As long as the punishment for the crime is less than the crime itself, crime will perpetuate.

Please read the article. Google ceased the practice three years ago, so no it will not perpetuate.

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