15-minute writing exercise closes the gender gap in university-level physics • Hacker News Board

Re: 15-minute writing exercise closes the gender gap in university-level physics

#51

Post by pjscott » Sat, Nov 27, 2010, 6:26 AM UTC

stelfer wrote: post #33

hugh3 wrote: post #2

I remain really skeptical. If you believe this, then doing a fifteen-minute writing exercise at the start of a fifteen week course in which you "write about your values" rather than a different fifteen-minute writing exercise where you "write about other peoples values" leads you to understand introductory physics significantly better at the end, if you're a woman, or understand introductory physics significantly wor…

I doubt you have spent time teaching undergraduate physics. Your assertion that the male students might have dropped out because of the "frou-frou" exercise is easily construed as chauvinistic. Unless you are a female student in physical sciences or math, I don't think you can really understand what its like to be told, implicitly and explicitly, for most of your secondary and college education, that you are inferior…

> Unless you are a female student in physical sciences or math, I don't think you can really understand what its like to be told, implicitly and explicitly, for most of your secondary and college education, that you are inferior to your male peers.

I keep hearing this "inferior to your male peers" bit, but oddly enough, when I was in high school, the higher-level math and science classes were mostly populated by girls. The more respectable the class was, the more female-skewed the sex ratio was. I think I was the only person in my physiology class with a Y chromosome. This was in the American Midwest, in a vaguely lower-middle-class area.

To this day, I still don't know what was up with that.

Re: 15-minute writing exercise closes the gender gap in university-level physics

#52

Post by iopuy » Sat, Nov 27, 2010, 6:32 AM UTC

When I was 12 years old we were forced to take Tae Kwon Do in school for some odd reason (yes an American school). At the end of the practice session we would all sit around in a circle in the brightly light gym/dancing room with the instructor in the center. He would tell us to close our eyes for 2 minutes and when we were told to reopen them the lights seemed brighter. We were told if we did this once a week every week in life we would succeed no matter what. Well I have in my opinion succeeded in life so it must be because of the eye drill.

Re: 15-minute writing exercise closes the gender gap in university-level physics

#53

Post by Cushman » Sat, Nov 27, 2010, 7:03 AM UTC

hugh3 wrote: post #2

I remain really skeptical. If you believe this, then doing a fifteen-minute writing exercise at the start of a fifteen week course in which you "write about your values" rather than a different fifteen-minute writing exercise where you "write about other peoples values" leads you to understand introductory physics significantly better at the end, if you're a woman, or understand introductory physics significantly wor…

Alternative hypothesis to your alternative hypothesis: if you have a class of finite time, increasing the engagement of one group by means of removing obstacles to engagement means that the rest of the class will have comparatively less class time and attention devoted to them, and thus see decreased performance.

Or maybe you're right, and male physics students are typically such pricks that having to think about feelings for fifteen minutes causes a semester-long depressive spiral. Could go either way.

Re: 15-minute writing exercise closes the gender gap in university-level physics

#54

Post by smokeyj » Sat, Nov 27, 2010, 7:53 AM UTC

wazoox wrote: post #3

Very interesting. It may need to be backed with some more data but it's promising.

My money is on statistical fluke, how many times was this experiment even run? If they're credible they should collect the average over a number of experiments (the higher the better).

Re: 15-minute writing exercise closes the gender gap in university-level physics

#55

Post by rudyfink » Sat, Nov 27, 2010, 8:30 AM UTC

The fact that they tinkered with the Y axis scaling on the graph makes me quite suspicious of their results. I admit it is knee jerk, but anytime I see charts asking me to compare things and the scales are different I just wonder what else someone felt the need to obscure.

Re: 15-minute writing exercise closes the gender gap in university-level physics

#56

Post by Helianthus16 » Sat, Nov 27, 2010, 9:02 AM UTC

VladRussian wrote: post #8

confirms my everyday anecdotal observations - for women to get better men should get worse. Why women can't just reach men's level without need to lower the men' level? While taking a bit longer and more work, wouldn't that way it be more beneficial for human species?

I find it amusing that you are being downvoted for saying the same thing many others are saying, but less politely and more baldly.

We are at a point where men are starting to realize that gender imbalance works both ways, where lots of comments decry the article's inattention to the male decrease in performance.

But there's still a taboo.

Re: 15-minute writing exercise closes the gender gap in university-level physics

#57

Post by blasdel » Sat, Nov 27, 2010, 10:28 AM UTC

pjscott wrote: post #51

stelfer wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I doubt you have spent time teaching undergraduate physics. Your assertion that the male students might have dropped out because of the "frou-frou" exercise is easily construed as chauvinistic. Unless you are a female student in physical sciences or math, I don't think you can really understand what its like to be told, implicitly and explicitly, for most of your secondary and college education, that you are inferior…

> Unless you are a female student in physical sciences or math, I don't think you can really understand what its like to be told, implicitly and explicitly, for most of your secondary and college education, that you are inferior to your male peers. I keep hearing this "inferior to your male peers" bit, but oddly enough, when I was in high school, the higher-level math and science classes were mostly populated by girl…

physical sciences != physiology

You're right that for the last couple decades, the life sciences have been increasingly dominated by women, but that's not what was being discussed.

Re: 15-minute writing exercise closes the gender gap in university-level physics

#58

Post by MrScruff » Sat, Nov 27, 2010, 11:29 AM UTC

stelfer wrote: post #33

hugh3 wrote: post #2

I remain really skeptical. If you believe this, then doing a fifteen-minute writing exercise at the start of a fifteen week course in which you "write about your values" rather than a different fifteen-minute writing exercise where you "write about other peoples values" leads you to understand introductory physics significantly better at the end, if you're a woman, or understand introductory physics significantly wor…

I doubt you have spent time teaching undergraduate physics. Your assertion that the male students might have dropped out because of the "frou-frou" exercise is easily construed as chauvinistic. Unless you are a female student in physical sciences or math, I don't think you can really understand what its like to be told, implicitly and explicitly, for most of your secondary and college education, that you are inferior…

Unless you are a female student in physical sciences or math, I don't think you can really understand what its like to be told, implicitly and explicitly, for most of your secondary and college education, that you are inferior to your male peers.

I honestly don't believe this is the actual problem. Students of both sexes encounter negative attitudes during their schooling. It's just that women are more likely to take it to heart.

The average male physics student (I include myself in this) has something of an underlying belief that they understand the world better than everyone else. It's an expression of the extreme male brain.

I doubt you would find the same characteristics in male students studying, say acting.

Re: 15-minute writing exercise closes the gender gap in university-level physics

#59

Post by Mz » Sat, Nov 27, 2010, 11:44 AM UTC

stelfer wrote: post #33

hugh3 wrote: post #2

I remain really skeptical. If you believe this, then doing a fifteen-minute writing exercise at the start of a fifteen week course in which you "write about your values" rather than a different fifteen-minute writing exercise where you "write about other peoples values" leads you to understand introductory physics significantly better at the end, if you're a woman, or understand introductory physics significantly wor…

I doubt you have spent time teaching undergraduate physics. Your assertion that the male students might have dropped out because of the "frou-frou" exercise is easily construed as chauvinistic. Unless you are a female student in physical sciences or math, I don't think you can really understand what its like to be told, implicitly and explicitly, for most of your secondary and college education, that you are inferior…

Unless you are a female student in physical sciences or math, I don't think you can really understand what its like to be told, implicitly and explicitly, for most of your secondary and college education, that you are inferior to your male peers.

I'm a woman. My undergad major is "Environmental Resource Management" and I have a certificate in GIS (a 2/3 male field and my classes were all about 2/3 male). I don't know if I am just oblivious or what, but it was the last week of GIS school before it dawned on me that the majority of women consistently occupied the last two rows of seats in class and a few other women floated around the classroom but I was the only woman who usually sat up front (assuming a seat was available up front, which it usually was). I occasionally wonder why I seem to live differently from other women and why I seem to not hear or not take to heart (or something) such "messages". Where are women hearing these messages? (Serious question -- I've wondered about this for years. What am I missing??) Anyone have any thoughts?

I've had practical obstacles to my success that were related to being female. Most of those disappeared with my divorce. But I really don't get where or how such brainwashing occurs for most women (even though it seems pretty clear it does occur).

Re: 15-minute writing exercise closes the gender gap in university-level physics

#60

Post by VladRussian » Sat, Nov 27, 2010, 12:36 PM UTC

Helianthus16 wrote: post #56

VladRussian wrote: post #8

confirms my everyday anecdotal observations - for women to get better men should get worse. Why women can't just reach men's level without need to lower the men' level? While taking a bit longer and more work, wouldn't that way it be more beneficial for human species?

I find it amusing that you are being downvoted for saying the same thing many others are saying, but less politely and more baldly. We are at a point where men are starting to realize that gender imbalance works both ways, where lots of comments decry the article's inattention to the male decrease in performance. But there's still a taboo.

>...less politely and more baldly.

"[these days] a shape is being ascribed with very high content" - a phrase from a good movie about another society living an artificial reality - socialism of the Soviet Union 25+years ago.