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4chan, 8chan blocked by Australian and NZ ISPs for hosting shooting video

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Re: 4chan, 8chan blocked by Australian and NZ ISPs for hosting shooting video

#91
post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're either for free speech or you're not, and as much as I would like to have some absolute reference of good and bad, it's all culturally defined. I mean, I think it's horrible, but I can envision lots of functional and useful societies that are horrible based on my principles (how would you like to to be part of a hize mind?), but that doesn't make them bad in an absolute sense. Scaled down, freedom of speech is…

Morality is relative but it isn't subjective. Slaughtering innocents for political purposes is a universally evil act.

It feels good to say stuff like that, and it's the kind of reality I want to live in, but my whole point is:

- Define innocent

- Define political

- Define evil

In way that is independent of the culture in which it takes place. It might even be possible to do so, or come close, when limited to current cultures and Humans. That's a far cry from proved as universal though. It's been quite a while since I read it, but I believe this short story[1] covers some of the ground I'm trying to express. Note: If you key off humans/aliens, I think you're missing the point.

1: https://www.lesswrong.com/posts/n5TqCuizyJDfAPjkr/the-baby-e...

Re: 4chan, 8chan blocked by Australian and NZ ISPs for hosting shooting video

#92
post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Isn't their policy basically "anything goes"? Locking things down seems counter to their goals. I know they have "some" moderation in "some" parts of their site, but moderating too much will just drive people away since many are there for "free speech" reasons. I think they'd be happier with the policy of, "if you don't like it, leave" than trying to appease others.

No, they specifically censor content like child pornography, torrent links (AFAIK), and some other material. There are situations where the expression of certain speech, like the generation and propagation of child pornography, harms others and should not be allowed. Even the original FS philosophers mostly agreed on this type of censorship.

Child porn hurts people?

Re: 4chan, 8chan blocked by Australian and NZ ISPs for hosting shooting video

#93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, free speech doesnt mean "anything goes". We as a society have made the determination that there are categories of speech that are harmful, and as such are illegal. You cant libel, you cant slander, you cant shout "Fire" in a crowded theater. Speech that advocates for the supression or termination of other people based on their race is "Hate speech" and also illegal. There is neither value nor need for complete…

Free speech is about government interference, and the first 3 categories have unanimous agreement. It's the "hate speech" label that gets complicated based on who defines it. Many who claim things are hate speech today also use hate speech themselves (following your definition of suppression based on race) to shout down and ban others. It shows just how complex this situation is and why "hate speech" is precisely the…

Hate speech is also free speech per legal definition. That’s why the KKK can march through towns and profess hatred of whichever group they choose.

Re: 4chan, 8chan blocked by Australian and NZ ISPs for hosting shooting video

#94

Just a thought experiment: so it's after 9/11. Nobody will show a video of the planes flying into the towers. The only place you can watch the video is ISISchan.org, and there are news articles about how many countries banning ISISchan.org & how problematic ISISchan.org is (don't go to ISISchan.org, kids!). Now instead of watching a clip on CNN you've got people absorbing all the extremist propaganda on ISISchan.

I'm very biased against video. I don't watch TV news or reshared political videos. I'm quite happy that Hacker News doesn't host video; you can link if needed. So, I have questions:

There are specialized uses, but for most of us, I'm skeptical that it's important to have video of news events as they happen. If nobody caught 9/11 on video, what would be different?

For many years, no cameras were allowed in courtrooms or in Congress. It seems like that was fine?

Re: 4chan, 8chan blocked by Australian and NZ ISPs for hosting shooting video

#95
post #29

I watched this "illegal" video. And not only do I think it should not be illegal, I think watching it should be almost mandatory ! Package it with a safety curriculum, and people should watch it to know what to do. In particular: For the most part, those people in the video who ran, lived, those who tried to drop low, or froze up, died. (There were a couple of exceptions.) Additionally, one guy tried to attack the sh…

Marine friend said if there's a shooter, charge them. Most people aren't trained to handle it. Throw something at them and run at them. If even 5 people had attacked this guy at once, he would have been taken down and many people saved. This guy maybe was trained... but who knows, 10 people fighting for their lives of their families and kids would be scary to face.

> If even 5 people had attacked this guy at once, he would have been taken down and many people saved.

But those 5 people would have to take the increased risk of getting killed, which is difficult to convince than just run. Also the standard safety norms, says to do not indulge with the attacker.

Re: 4chan, 8chan blocked by Australian and NZ ISPs for hosting shooting video

#96
Maybe there is another reason this video is being banned.

I saw this video, I made myself watch it. (judge me)

Then I went back to my tv show. There were scenes of soldiers attacking the "heroes" in a bowling alley, and it made me horrified and sick. And I realized Hollywood is glorifying this shit. Hollywood is promoting shootings like this.

An hour before, and this tv show was entertainment to me. Now I feel like a twisted sicko for enjoying violent entertainment just like what is in the New Zealand video.

This video changed me, it made me see violence in a new light. It's sick to be entertained by re-enactments of this in the same way as the original.

Re: 4chan, 8chan blocked by Australian and NZ ISPs for hosting shooting video

#97
post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because it shouldn’t. Why let a terrorist organization not only get away with a shooting, but also get away with taking down any service (which removes content like this swiftly ) too?

How do you define "swiftly?" I haven't been able to follow this as closely as I like, but what I read early on was that it was streaming on Facebook for 17 minutes, and then available as reposts for days afterward. If this is incorrect, help me out by providing the actual numbers.

17 minutes to remove an offending stream, when literally millions of streams which are legitimate, sounds reasonable.

Re: 4chan, 8chan blocked by Australian and NZ ISPs for hosting shooting video

#98
It's good that the ISP's decided to act on their own in this case, and they weren't ordered by the courts. But can't say I am a fan of this. Why participate in censorship? Once something is on the Internet, it's not gonna go away. It's trivial to get the shooting footage for those who want to see it. Censoring is a band aid at best. These tragedies happen because of an underlying problem. Address gun laws, address xenophobia. Those are the real problems. Censoring the footage is just going to create more curiosity. It is giving exclusivity to a killer. The act of censoring the footage is giving credence to the killer.

Besides, I think there are legitimate uses of this footage. We live in a world where mass shootings are increasing. But there is no public awareness in countering these situations. I think at this point we should train students from a young age, and adults, on what to do if in an active shooter situation. The fact that this isn't done is incredibly scary to me. I personally saw the footage, so that I can potentially pick up things from it and potentially save my life if god forbid I end up in a situation like that.

I am so incredibly saddened and frustrated by the lack of training for these situations in our society. With a proper response I think so many lives could have been saved. In this instance, killer went into the mosque and all the people formed 2 giant clumps/clusters around the 2 door exists on either side of the central entrance the killer entered from. Killer just unloaded on the right hand side cluster, then left hand side cluster. He faced practically zero opposition. One brave man successfully tackled him to the ground but by that time it was already too late.

I understand that in a panic situation like that it's fight or flight and most people understandably lose their heads and try to flee, and it is very hard to coordinate a counter attack to something like this. But this is why I say we need to bring this type of training in schools and in our day to day lives. I know it's a morbid reality where such a thing is necessary but alas such is the reality right now. If everyone had rushed the killer instead of forming 2 giant convenient clusters for the killer to unload into, I think so many lives would have been saved.

Re: 4chan, 8chan blocked by Australian and NZ ISPs for hosting shooting video

#99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Isn't their policy basically "anything goes"? Locking things down seems counter to their goals. I know they have "some" moderation in "some" parts of their site, but moderating too much will just drive people away since many are there for "free speech" reasons. I think they'd be happier with the policy of, "if you don't like it, leave" than trying to appease others.

m00t had taken action when it was necessary in the past. m00t had already banned the offending parties once. Then he reinstated them and gave them a containment board. In retrospect this did not work so well. The containment board became an ever radicalized echo chamber and worst, it did not contain anything. Since Hiro took over it seems like he has ignored the issue. This was pre-neonazi days. /news/ and /pol/ were…

the worst of the worst are already banned and made 8chan (no doxing/raiding allowed on 4chan, etc ). the fundamental problem is pretending to be a white supremacist as a comedic device, and actually being one, are not easily distinguished on an anonymous message board. especially when the most popular form of humor on that board, is trying to be edgy and/or imitating someone you think is stupid.

if you are old enough to remember /b/ raiding Hal Turner, i'm pretty sure that same thing would have happened to Alex Jones had raiding not been banned.

Re: 4chan, 8chan blocked by Australian and NZ ISPs for hosting shooting video

#100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Marine friend said if there's a shooter, charge them. Most people aren't trained to handle it. Throw something at them and run at them. If even 5 people had attacked this guy at once, he would have been taken down and many people saved. This guy maybe was trained... but who knows, 10 people fighting for their lives of their families and kids would be scary to face.

> If even 5 people had attacked this guy at once, he would have been taken down and many people saved. But those 5 people would have to take the increased risk of getting killed, which is difficult to convince than just run. Also the standard safety norms, says to do not indulge with the attacker.

I understand and fully agree. That is why real training, even the most basic, is a good idea. Running and hiding didn't help any of these people. (unless they actually got out of the building)

Those men let women and children die around them without even trying to save them.

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