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The Lost Futures of Mark Fisher

kirkcenter.org

11–20 of 43 posts

Re: The Lost Futures of Mark Fisher

#11
post #7

The opening paragraph of this piece mentions (but does not link to) Fisher's 2013 piece "Exiting The Vampire Castle". If you haven't read it, you probably should: https://www.opendemocracy.net/en/opendemocracyuk/exiting-vam... . It's a critique of the progressive liberal left from the traditional far left. Central to Fisher's thesis is that by emphasizing race and sex, class identity (which he feels is crucial) is ig…

The critiques are similar insofar as they are both critiques, but differ vastly in their content. Mark Fisher, and the 'traditional left's' critique of neoliberal identity politics calls for a centering of class -- that is the power relations inherent in capital modes of production. This, many would argue is not an identity, but a _material position_: a specific stance or relationship to the productive forces in soci…

If you look at political history, the jokingly made Fish Hook Theory is more valid than the Horse Shoe.

https://i.redd.it/ipw1tkw2v06z.png

Re: The Lost Futures of Mark Fisher

#12
post #9

As a fan of Fisher, it's interesting to read an open-minded review of his work from someone on the right. But the bit about Islam can't be left unchallenged. The reviewer says: >>> I would not claim that Islam is monolithically malign, of course, but someone less constrained by their unconscious sense of ideological appropriateness would ask why interpretations of the faith lead people towards evangelistic violence a…

You are right that any philosophy can be distorted and made horrific. It’s kind of like how even lots of water can be poisonous if drank in sufficient quantities.

It’s hard for me to bring up a topic like this without being lumped into straw man town of equating “some religions tend to have more violently dangerous people, as data like the pew opinions show” with “some religions are universally bad and racism is ok.”

I think an understanding of my first quote is important while my second quote is not worth, to me, discussing because racism is really harmful.

That being said, while the kkk is very real and caused massive historical violence and even today has a non-zero level of threat. The evalgelistic Christians are about as dangerous, in terms of violence, as followers of Eris working to further the Eschaton.

Other philosophies and religions are currently more dangerous and we need to engage with, learn about, and support constructive ways to change minds so apostasy stops being a capital offense in our world.

Re: The Lost Futures of Mark Fisher

#13
This piece exhibits the usual problem of using words and expression so abstract or vague that anyone reading it can pour in the undetstanding ones wants. People discussing will often disagree because they have different take on simple words. Just i the opening two paragraphs I can mention: "cultural and political theorist", "censorious moralism", "Poshleft moralisers", "kangaroo courts", "structural critique", "inspire and energise", "speculative realism", "knowing postmodern pretension". Add in the usual tendencies for hyperboles and denigrement of anything they disagree with, it adds up to something only people already adhering to whatever cause it's about will read.

Re: The Lost Futures of Mark Fisher

#15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The critiques are similar insofar as they are both critiques, but differ vastly in their content. Mark Fisher, and the 'traditional left's' critique of neoliberal identity politics calls for a centering of class -- that is the power relations inherent in capital modes of production. This, many would argue is not an identity, but a _material position_: a specific stance or relationship to the productive forces in soci…

If you look at political history, the jokingly made Fish Hook Theory is more valid than the Horse Shoe. https://i.redd.it/ipw1tkw2v06z.png

If you look at the history of Stalinism, the Khmer Rouge, and Maoism, the horseshoe theory begins to look appealing again, unless you consider Stalin to be Fascist.

Re: The Lost Futures of Mark Fisher

#16

This piece exhibits the usual problem of using words and expression so abstract or vague that anyone reading it can pour in the undetstanding ones wants. People discussing will often disagree because they have different take on simple words. Just i the opening two paragraphs I can mention: "cultural and political theorist", "censorious moralism", "Poshleft moralisers", "kangaroo courts", "structural critique", "inspi…

Might want to take that reaction as impetus to read more

Re: The Lost Futures of Mark Fisher

#17
post #12
post #9

As a fan of Fisher, it's interesting to read an open-minded review of his work from someone on the right. But the bit about Islam can't be left unchallenged. The reviewer says: >>> I would not claim that Islam is monolithically malign, of course, but someone less constrained by their unconscious sense of ideological appropriateness would ask why interpretations of the faith lead people towards evangelistic violence a…

You are right that any philosophy can be distorted and made horrific. It’s kind of like how even lots of water can be poisonous if drank in sufficient quantities. It’s hard for me to bring up a topic like this without being lumped into straw man town of equating “some religions tend to have more violently dangerous people, as data like the pew opinions show” with “some religions are universally bad and racism is ok.”…

https://www.salon.com/2013/08/03/the_10_worst_examples_of_ch...

https://www.splcenter.org/20180723/terror-right

Re: The Lost Futures of Mark Fisher

#18
post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are right that any philosophy can be distorted and made horrific. It’s kind of like how even lots of water can be poisonous if drank in sufficient quantities. It’s hard for me to bring up a topic like this without being lumped into straw man town of equating “some religions tend to have more violently dangerous people, as data like the pew opinions show” with “some religions are universally bad and racism is ok.”…

https://www.salon.com/2013/08/03/the_10_worst_examples_of_ch... https://www.splcenter.org/20180723/terror-right

Aside from those sources aren’t really reputable, that’s why I said that the right threat is non-zero. It does exist, it’s just less than other threats.

OKC was 1995. It makes me feel old but that’s 25 years ago. I would worry more if Montana had turned into an ISIS-like dystopian recruiting all these dumbasses to gather from around the world to make a super Pope or something.

Re: The Lost Futures of Mark Fisher

#19
post #2

Do checkout "Capitalist Realism: Is There No Alternative?", It's a concise book that talks about capitalism and its effects on culture and public thought. I haven't read lost futures yet but I found this really good video discussing Mark's idea by Cuck Philosophy called "Hauntology, Lost Futures and 80s Nostalgia" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gSvUqhZcbVg

Indeed one of the best and easiest to read pieces of Postmodern philosophy. Also a great YT channel, been subbed for a while.

Re: The Lost Futures of Mark Fisher

#20
> I would not claim that Islam is monolithically malign, of course, but someone less constrained by their unconscious sense of ideological appropriateness would ask why interpretations of the faith lead people towards evangelistic violence and puritanical tyranny so much more than interpretations of other faiths.

After WWII and decolonisation, a new breed of educated, progressive and secular leaders arose across former colonial states. In the Middle East, this was characterised by the influence of Egypt's Nasser. These leaders weren't afraid to stand up to religious fundamentalism. Here is a 1966 video of Nasser making fun of the Muslim Brotherhood trying to force women to wear the hijab[0]. There were secular governments across the Middle East, including Iran, Iraq, Syria, and Lebanon.

However, these secular and socialist leaders were seen as too close to the Soviets by the US, despite many of them explicitly participating in the Non-Aligned movement, and America and its allies quickly acted to counter their influence and depose them when possible.

The major political opponent to anti-imperialist socialism across the Islamic world were the religious fundamentalists, so they were the ones who were backed by the West.

Western support for Saudi's and their Wahhabist ideology is well known. Indonesia's Sukarno was deposed in an American supported purge backed by Islamic fundamentalists, described by the CIA itself as "one of the worst mass murders of the 20th century". Hamas was propped up in Palestine by the Israelis as a counter to Arafat's secular Fatah[1]. Western efforts to undermine Nasser and fund his political opponents(surprise... Islamic fundamentalists) are well documented. The crushing of Nasserism in the Arab world with the help of the Saudis and Israelis is regarded as one of the great triumphs of post WW2 American foreign policy. The groups that formed Al Qaeda and the Taliban were supported by Americans as counters to the Soviets in Afghanistan. There is also consistent American support for the Pakistani government, even in the face of genocide of millions[2], in an attempt to counter the spooky "socialist" and secular India.

And all that is discounting the reactionary sort of fundamentalism that might arise as a result of constant war and interventionism by the West in the Middle East.

It makes me sad when I see "westerners" criticizing Islamic extremism without recognizing their own culpability in the current state of affairs. It is short-sighted and illogical to divorce the political and social situation in the Islamic world from centuries of western foreign policy.

[0]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0fswb4a9jcU [1]: https://www.wsj.com/articles/SB123275572295011847 [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1971_Bangladesh_genocide

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