China's e-buses dent oil demand more than electric cars do • Hacker News Board

Re: China's e-buses dent oil demand more than electric cars do

#211

Post by seanmcdirmid » Wed, Mar 20, 2019, 1:41 PM UTC

dsfyu404ed wrote: post #196

seanmcdirmid wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hills are the primary use case for electric buses already (electric has much better torque), and have been for a very long time. The only thing is now instead of using overhead lines, batteries can be used instead.

>Hills are the primary use case for electric buses already (electric has much better torque) A typical fairly modern city bus is geared to top out at low highway speed. Having the maximum amount of acceleration is possible for a vehicle that is pulling in and out of traffic all day which is why they are geared so low. Buses will happily roast the tires from a stop (an impressive sight, I highly recommend) if not elec…

Have you seen Seattle hills before? Yes, you can service them with diesel if you have to, but ride times suffer, and it’s a very crappy ride. San Francisco uses trolley buses for similar hill routes as well, as does almost every city with hills outside of the USA. This has been known well before EVs became a thing, since the 1940s at least. Since battery tech wasn’t good enough, they were powered by overhead lines instead.

Re: China's e-buses dent oil demand more than electric cars do

#212

Post by jdietrich » Wed, Mar 20, 2019, 1:43 PM UTC

andyjh wrote: post #146

evolve2k wrote: post #61

This points out a new opportunity. Why stop at China for electric busses (yes they are probably manufacturing them locally)? Cities are seeming increasingly more able to be proactive than countries. Encourage local cities to one by one electrify the bus network and this effect goes global. It’s obvious tangible action that citizens can demand and mayors can visibly deliver. Game for those playing at home, do a search…

Milton Keynes has had electric buses since 2014, which top up their batteries via induction chargers at the end of each route throughout the day: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-25621426 http://www.cbi.org.uk/insight-and-analysis/milton-keynes-wir... The number of buses is set to increase after the initial successful trial: https://www.miltonkeynes.co.uk/news/more-electric-buses-on-t...

MK is a bit of a joke in Britain, but it's easily our most innovative town.

https://spectrum.ieee.org/cars-that-think/transportation/sel...

http://telecoms.com/487246/milton-keynes-set-to-be-first-uk-...

Re: China's e-buses dent oil demand more than electric cars do

#213

Post by seanmcdirmid » Wed, Mar 20, 2019, 1:44 PM UTC

StudentStuff wrote: post #139

seanmcdirmid wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The opposite is occurring in places like Seattle. The overhead electric trolley lines are coming down as batteries become good enough to support electric buses without the PITA of going off line (electric was already needed for many routes in Seattle because of hills). Electric also makes more sense in Seattle because 70% of its electrify comes from hydro.

What route has been de-eletrified? IIRC Seattle made a big push to invest in the overhead catenary system just a few years ago, as the neighborhoods that have overhead catenary wires were in a frenzy over the mere suggestion that they'd be retired. The overhead lines do force King County Metro to avoid changing routes (a boon for local riders), and are 50% faster at getting the bus up to speed after a stop. Short of…

Ya, I thought they were moving away from it, but it turns out they are improving overhead lines by combining it with battery tech to allow for better performance (less chance of unhooking at greater speeds using batteries to fill in gaps at intersections). See the new first hill street car: https://sdotblog.seattle.gov/2015/05/04/first-hill-street-ca...

Re: China's e-buses dent oil demand more than electric cars do

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Post by cf141q5325 » Wed, Mar 20, 2019, 1:44 PM UTC

detaro wrote: post #169

benj111 wrote: post #166

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm confused by your point. "Intact Forest Landscapes" seems to exclude any human made forest. So are you against all human planting of forests?

I was providing data for your > I doubt theres a forest in Europe that hasn't been touched by man.

There is some but its extremely rare. In Germany you for example have the Hambacher Forst, where parts are as old as 700 years. Its scale is however lacking

https://www.dw.com/image/45302299_401.png

Generally you have "untouched" as in oldgrowth/primary forest and not being a secondary forest, which takes a few hundred years.

Re: China's e-buses dent oil demand more than electric cars do

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Post by jaegerpicker » Wed, Mar 20, 2019, 1:51 PM UTC

Sabinus wrote: post #134

m0zg wrote: post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> 66 billion trees planted so far News in 10-20 years: massive wildfires decimate Africa. It's pointless and dangerous to have more trees than the waterbed can support. California re-learns this lesson nearly every year.

I assume there were many more trees in the same watershed before man chopped them down for pasture and cities.

Sure, but there was a lot more available water in the watershed then also. Agriculture in a lot of ways has been the biggest ecological disaster this planet has ever seen. Man has redirected and pushed water out of nearly every watershed on the planet vastly changing what biome a area can support. I say that fully aware of the benefits that Agriculture has allowed human society, I wouldn't change it if I could in the past but I deeply hope we figure out a way to co-exist with nature in a less destructive way.

Re: China's e-buses dent oil demand more than electric cars do

#216

Post by heavenlyblue » Wed, Mar 20, 2019, 1:58 PM UTC

mcv wrote: post #181

spongeb00b wrote: post #153

Electric buses seem to be fairly common in UK city centres. I first saw one in London about 4 years ago - it was surreal when walking past a typical red double decker at a bus stop and it just glided away with the faintest whirr. I’m all for buses and taxis turning electric to reduce the diesel fumes in cities.

Amsterdam also has a number of electric buses, though I'm not sure how many. I'm also glad to see lots of Teslas and Priuses as taxis. Clearly this is the low-hanging fruit for cutting back on fossil fuels: short range city traffic that's in constant use. It also improves the air quality in city centers.

How Ansterdam taxi drivers afford Teslas, btw?

Re: China's e-buses dent oil demand more than electric cars do

#217

Post by Symmetry » Wed, Mar 20, 2019, 2:01 PM UTC

bobthepanda wrote: post #197

Nanite wrote: post #167

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Evidence to the contrary: http://www.vdlbuscoach.com/News/News-Library/2018/Europa-s-g... I use these on a regular basis, for urban environments, electric busses combined with overhead superchargers at the end-of-line terminals work really well.

The Netherlands also has mild winters and is notoriously flat.

We have all electric buses here in Boston too and we've got both real winters and lots of hills.

Re: China's e-buses dent oil demand more than electric cars do

#218

Post by austincheney » Wed, Mar 20, 2019, 2:01 PM UTC

throwaway5752 wrote: post #160

austincheney wrote: post #136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most days May through September experience an average high of actual temperature of around 120F each day with 100% sunshine. Its the heat index that brings it up to about 140F. You have to understand that during the summer here there is relatively lower humidity during peak sunlight which refracts less light before hitting the ground. The ground here is also highly reflective of heat, which is felt at least 5 to 6 fe…

Developed countries with high car ownership and countries with very small populations and very large hydrocarbon extraction industries.

That isn't accurate either. The country that outputs the highest CO2 per capita is Qatar. Qatar left OPEC within the last year because their oil extraction is so low. Qatar's primary hydrocarbon extraction is LNG (liquefied natural gas) which is a low CO2 emitter relative to oil refinement.

Also, most the countries here have a higher than average population density compared to the global average due to a small geographic footprint.

Re: China's e-buses dent oil demand more than electric cars do

#219

Post by bluGill » Wed, Mar 20, 2019, 2:08 PM UTC

seanmcdirmid wrote: post #105

thewhitetulip wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, at the start they'll die without human intervention, sure. But wait for 30yrs, let the land be revived and let nature take her course. I am pretty sure that we'll see lush green forest near the Gobi desert and the desert might also be pushed back. I dislike the dictatorship in China but this effort is unparalleled.

Trees don’t make water come on it’s own. A lot of the planting is intrinsically unsustainable. That is the problem with top down authoritarian directives, execution is lacking. Follow through is lacking as the government declares success after they sign the order and then forget about it after patting themselves on the back.

Trees do make rain. Part of what trees do is take water from the ground and expire it from their leaves increasing humidity and thus making rain. This is not the same as making water, but it means a forest will get more rainfall than the desert it replaces.

Trees however require a certain amount of water to function. You can do better by planting grass which can survive better on less rain long term by going dormant. However eventually there isn't enough water for grass to grow either.

Of course everything depends on location. Different locations have different soils, rainfall, temperature... You cannot treat every location on earth as the same.

Re: China's e-buses dent oil demand more than electric cars do

#220

Post by growlist » Wed, Mar 20, 2019, 2:10 PM UTC

mcv wrote: post #208

growlist wrote: post #202

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Uncontrolled immigration is what made America great A massive claim. Care to support it? As far as I was aware, much of America's success is a simple accident of history, notably: having a massive virtually unoccupied continent with enormous unexploited natural resources, a single unified market with single currency, having no land border with a hostile foreign entity capable of posing a genuine threat, and taking…

Yeah, but without immigration during the 19th and early 20th century, the US wouldn't have anyone to work on those resources and the continent would still be virtually unoccupied. The US would have been as empty as Siberia.

So then you admit that immigration was just one part of the puzzle? Or are you asserting that you could take those same immigrants, transplant them anywhere in the world, and have the same outcome?