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Cockpit voice recorder of Lion Air jet depicts pilots' frantic search for fix

reuters.com

81–90 of 272 posts

Re: Cockpit voice recorder of Lion Air jet depicts pilots' frantic search for fix

#81
post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Gyroscopes by themselves can not sense the orientation of a body moving through three dimensions.

Why not? I thought this is precisely what gyroscopes did.

Electronic gyroscopes measure rotational speed. In order to measure orientation you need to integrate over time and align it with a reference frame, typically by estimating gravity using the accelerometer. An inertial measurement unit has both of these.

Cheap phones often don't have gyroscopes but still are able to rotate your screen orientation based on the accelerometer.

The spinning-disk ones kind of do, they aim to keep their orientation, but they also need gravity or so for initial alignment/realignment (otherwise things would get funky when you make a trip around the earth, since technically your plane is upside down if it would fly halfway around the earth ..)

Re: Cockpit voice recorder of Lion Air jet depicts pilots' frantic search for fix

#82

One of the factors that has been quickly glossed over is the low level of experience of some of the pilots in both the Indonesian and Ethopian accidents. In the USA, due to much higher levels of experience pilots have been correcting for the MCAS actions effectively and complaining about it to NASA (in order to avoid being branded as whistle-blowers by their airlines).

How would it even be possible for US pilots to sustainably have „much higher levels of experience“? Do non-US pilots fly only two days a week? Do they all die before age 40? This stereotype of dingy third-world airlines with incompetent, untrained pilots borders on racism. At the very least, one should notice that flying the world’s newest airliner in significant numbers is incompatible with one‘s preconceptions.

Hypothetically, aspiring US pilots could be required to spend years flying cargo, or working abroad, or in the military, or paying $$$$ for training, to rack up the required flight hours to be eligible for US passenger jobs.

(I have no idea if this is the case or not - I'm merely saying it's possible)

Re: Cockpit voice recorder of Lion Air jet depicts pilots' frantic search for fix

#83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Was the trim wheel not visibly spinning out of their control? Simply because the symptoms are different should mean that stopping it via taking manual control is a recurring option.

The Lion Air directive has instructions on page 41 of their preliminary report that include: 5. If the runaway continues after the autopilot is disengaged: STAB TRIM CUTOUT switches (both) ... CUTOUT If the runaway continues: Stabilizer trim wheel .... *Grasp and hold* This may be an overabundance of caution, or to cover other runaway events, but it reads like "you may need to physically fight the computer even when…

That's incorrect, these have haptic feedback, once you grasp it, it's not going to fight you. It looks for resistance and if it sees the resistance it doesn't continue.

Re: Cockpit voice recorder of Lion Air jet depicts pilots' frantic search for fix

#84

The thing I don't understand about that MCAS system is why it would continue to drive the nose of the plane down even when the pilot is reefing on the stick to pull up. The cruise control in my car automatically disengages when I hit the brakes, it doesn't continue to accelerate to keep the car going 60 while I am jamming on the brakes, in an emergency, I don't have time to find the off switch. Similarly, I would thi…

The same applies to the trim in a 737 and any other transport class aircraft. If you move the control column in the opposite direction of trim, the electric trim and autopilot trim will cut out. The same applies to the autopilot in all types I've flown, it disconnects if you override it manually (except for CWS mode, but that's known and expected)

I don't fly the 737, so I haven't read the aircraft specific books and systems overviews, but I expect this override behavior is very confusing in the MCAS scenario. Because any pilot would counteract a nose-down force by pulling on the yoke. The MCAS would then stop moving the trim, and the pilot would think (as would be true in any other situation) that the override worked. But MCAS didn't stop because of the override, it stops because it always does that after a few seconds and will re-activate 10 seconds later (or 20, didn't read a definitive number on this).

The confusing thing is that 95% of the unwanted trim movements are caused by the autopilot, so at this point the pilot would think the situation is under control and probably disconnect the autopilot if the movement didn't already,

The other 5% (or probably less) of unwanted trim movements are trim runaway, which is either a stuck switch (2 actually, you depress two switches at once to make it move, pressing 1 does nothing) or an electrical problem.

In both cases pulling back works and stops it. If it stays "stopped" you think autopilot and leave it disconnected. If it keeps moving continuously you think trim runaway and flip the trim cutout switches or pull the circuit breaker (this one is usually marked bright orange so you can find it quickly in planes without cutout switches)

But in the MCAS case, and without MCAS knowledge (which apparently nobody had) you would not expect it to start moving again later. You would have concluded "autopilot" of the above two scenarios, and after disconnect would think you're safe. So now when it starts moving again, your first idea is that the autopilot did not disconnect which leads to even more confusion in the cockpit.

The LionAir flight that was saved by the jumpseater got lucky in the sense that this guy was not flying, not debugging the autopilot, and did see the trim move because he has no instruments to scan and the trim is right in front of his face (in the middle between the two pilots). If you conclude that the issue is the trim, then any pilot would decide to go for the cut-out switches. It's just that concluding the trim is the issue, without knowing MCAS, under high pressure and with the wrong (autopilot) conclusion already on your mind is not very likely.

Re: Cockpit voice recorder of Lion Air jet depicts pilots' frantic search for fix

#85
post #7
post #4

In the other news, on the previous day on the same plane there was a retired pilot flying in cockpit who correctly diagnosed problem & told how to disable malfunctioning system: https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2019-03-19/how-an-ex...

That's the most amazing revelation to me so far. The same plane had an identical uncontrolled-dive problem the day before, which required an emergency power cut to the improperly-engaged motor, and somehow that incident didn't ground the plane or even result in any effective advisory to the next crew. Further, the Bloomberg story reports: "The Indonesia safety committee report said the plane had had multiple failures…

Just to be clear this is not "an uncontrolled dive problem". The amount of misreporting on this incident is maddening. When trim is adjusted you can feel it in the controls as the control stalk will put increasing pressure against you because of the trimmed controls. If you get increasing pressure on your controls the correct response is to adjust the trim to stop it. This is not a problem for any competent pilot.

Re: Cockpit voice recorder of Lion Air jet depicts pilots' frantic search for fix

#86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Note that AoA and the angle of the airframe body (relative to the horizon) may not be the same. Even if the airframe is pointing downwards (below the horizon) or really high up doesn't mean the wings have a sufficient AoA to generate lift.

Can't the IMU sense if you are generating lift (or not)?

No, because you can stall a wing at any attitude realtive to the horizon. It isn't about the pitch of the airplane, it's about the relative airflow over the wings.

So if you're falling quickly the airflow comes from "below" which causes a high angle of attack even if the nose is pointing level compared to the horizon.

Re: Cockpit voice recorder of Lion Air jet depicts pilots' frantic search for fix

#87
The book "Aviation Psychology: Practice and Research" by Klaus-Martin Goeters is an eye opener on the problems that the architects of complex control systems that interface with humans must take into account.

And the kind of problem that MCAS exhibited is clearly explained in the book.

The book doesn't talk only about control system design, but also about training, hiring, etc.

Re: Cockpit voice recorder of Lion Air jet depicts pilots' frantic search for fix

#88
post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> In Boeing airplanes, the movement of the two yokes is synchronized. So in case of two equally strong and equally determined pilots you still get averaging of opposing control inputs.

No, the failure mode is not two pilots consciously fighting against each other. The failure mode is two pilots who are UNAWARE they are commanding contradicting inputs. Airbus negligently averages these inputs. This is legacy tech debt because the physical design didn’t leave room to link the two controls. Now they are stuck because they feel they can’t change and have some planes that (dangerously) average the input…

[deleted]

Re: Cockpit voice recorder of Lion Air jet depicts pilots' frantic search for fix

#89
post #84

The thing I don't understand about that MCAS system is why it would continue to drive the nose of the plane down even when the pilot is reefing on the stick to pull up. The cruise control in my car automatically disengages when I hit the brakes, it doesn't continue to accelerate to keep the car going 60 while I am jamming on the brakes, in an emergency, I don't have time to find the off switch. Similarly, I would thi…

The same applies to the trim in a 737 and any other transport class aircraft. If you move the control column in the opposite direction of trim, the electric trim and autopilot trim will cut out. The same applies to the autopilot in all types I've flown, it disconnects if you override it manually (except for CWS mode, but that's known and expected) I don't fly the 737, so I haven't read the aircraft specific books and…

Why didn't the pilots adjust the trim manually? I don't understand how any pilot would consider increasing control pressure to be normal and not automatically respond by manually adjusting the trim.

Re: Cockpit voice recorder of Lion Air jet depicts pilots' frantic search for fix

#90
post #5

I'm trying to imagine the horror the pilots (and passengers) were feeling. Imagine your car slowly starting to shift sideways into incoming traffic, and no matter how hard you pull the steering wheel, you can't get it back. Horrifying.

Except that's not what occurred. They had control of the aircraft. The controls were never inoperative.
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