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Volk Fi: Distributed network smartphone

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Re: Volk Fi: Distributed network smartphone

#71

Post by athrowaway3z »

ac29 wrote: post #37
sinak wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The frequencies are what I was curious about as well. To have a half mile range at relatively low powers it would need to be a low frequency band. I'm guessing they haven't bought licenses from the FCC, so my bet is that they're using the 900 MHz ISM band. There's only 26 MHz of spectrum in that band, which isn't much, particularly for a mesh setup that won't be particularly spectrally efficient. Even with a high 30…

I work with 900MHz radios and infrastructure, here's my thoughts: > The frequencies are what I'm confused by as well. To have a half mile range at relatively low powers it would need to be a low frequency band. > I'm guessing they haven't bought licenses from the FCC, so my bet is that they're using the 900 MHz ISM band. Seems likely, and probably even works in controlled tests over relatively short distances. 900MHz…

> cell carriers have access to better bands, and far better infrastructure

What would be the best band for this kind of infrastructure? ( Disregarding any existing FCC licenses )

Re: Volk Fi: Distributed network smartphone

#72

Post by rocqua »

a3_nm wrote: post #66
remyM wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Whoops, my phone connected to someone on a train that just went past! My phone call just dropped.

Why would your call be routed just via one single phone?

Are you going to send the message over more than one route? That doubles the required bandwidth over the entire mesh.

Re: Volk Fi: Distributed network smartphone

#73

Post by rocqua »

a3_nm wrote: post #67
TheSpiceIsLife wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To answer my own question, as per the FAQ: Volk Fi counts data usage and bytes shared via WiFi. Every user gets the amount they share, unlimited. If a Volk user consumes more data than they share in a month, there is a 5GB data cap. After that, the user can pay the super cheap price of $1/GB for additional data.

I'm a bit puzzled about this: how do they plan to enforce such a cap in a distributed network? Doesn't this require distributed trust (about multiple users accounting the usage of each client)? Or are they assuming that the network will only consist of their phones running their unmodified software, so each phone can be trusted to do their accounting honestly?

Perhaps you only need to do the accounting at the exit nodes? That means you only need to trust the exit nodes, and identities included in the packets.

Re: Volk Fi: Distributed network smartphone

#74

Post by angel_j »

Robin_Message wrote: post #64
angel_j wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What if you used the noise as the carrier wave for the signal? Like, if in an urban area you have a "stable" probability distribution of noise, modulate that.

You're being downvited because, whilst this is a clever sounding idea, unfortunately it doesn't work like that. The noise is random, so you can't modulate it because you can't predict what it will be. A probability distribution isn't enough; say you want to modulate by XORing with a random, uniformly distributed stream of zeros and ones. Knowing that distribution doesn't enable the receiver to extract the data. (Fun…

Could you... modulate the amplitude of the PD?

Re: Volk Fi: Distributed network smartphone

#75

Post by rocqua »

max_ wrote: post #55

This is slightly off-topic, but why don't we have WiFi networks that work on a scale as large as Cellular networks?

Pure WiFi lacks the range. Moreover, there is very little on inter-working.

The cellular networks standards, though truly horrible, have done an incredible job of allowing a connection to jump between base-stations, and to allow a user to connect to almost any base-station. WiMax was an attempt to do something like WiFi with higher range. But it lacked the whole inter-working back-end that would allow a user to seamlessly jump between base-points.

Moreover, a network operator tends to have a lot more 'body' if only because it works on licensed spectrum. This means, at the very least, that if things go wrong you can sue it. Thus, there is at least a simple basis for trust. For WiFi access, since anyone can easily get on it, trust is much more a no go. Not just regarding malicious users, but also about simple reliability.

Re: Volk Fi: Distributed network smartphone

#76

Post by dpwm »

viraptor wrote: post #47

I like the idea, but I'm not sure how the abuse will work on those networks. There are two possible cases: 1. Volk data goes out via their gateway (proxied): They get access to your data. Their IPs get CloudFlare captchas all the time. (Like tor) 2. Volk data goes out from your router: You get to explain the CP access from your network. Your home IP gets CloudFlare captchas all the time. You get to monitor random peo…

> Which option is it?

"no more censorship" doesn't seem like a claim that can exist with option 2 – because they're crowd-sourcing carriers, and carriers censor.

So if their marketing is consistent – and ruling out a large-scale reorganization of the internet to be more decentralized – then it's option 1.

Option 1 also means that carriers can kill internet connectivity relatively trivially to these devices. Countries like Saudi Arabia, UAE, Qatar and China will do this if it becomes a big enough threat to their internet censorship endeavors.

Re: Volk Fi: Distributed network smartphone

#77

Post by martindale »

int_19h wrote: post #20

This makes a bit more sense: "Every Volk phone has a SIM card slot and supports use on traditional LTE networks. However, a SIM is not necessary and the phone will always prioritize the Volk network first. The Volk network works as such: every Volk user gets a special router with their phone. The router acts as a wireless Qi charging pad also. The router connects to your existing internet via Ethernet or something si…

If it works as a drop-in replacement for the Pixel line on Fi, I'm pretty much sold.

Re: Volk Fi: Distributed network smartphone

#78

Post by usrusr »

sliken wrote: post #24
josh2600 wrote: post #2

I would bet almost any amount of money this isn’t going to work. In any mesh network, the overhead of coordinating nodes dominates network traffic. This is before you even begin to think about the terms of service violations for all of these WiFi access points.

Why not? Keep in mind that most phone use these days is not voice traffic. Even the voice calls are often done from home, work, or somewhere with wifi (like restaurants, bars, airports, libraries, grocery stores, schools, universities, etc). Despite using my phone heavily I often use less than 1GB a month on LTE (probably at least 10x than on wifi). About the only change in behavior I made is having photos backed up…

Spectrum is limited. Multihop meshing burdens the shared medium harder than a conventional network. Mesh believers always argue that it would work well if only it had enough members, but I believe that you reach too many nodes before you reach enough.

That said, the technology might be a pretty cool upgrade to the walkie talkie for groups coordinating in remote areas. But I'm afraid it will be just yet another attempt at selling phones to the unsustainably small niche of wealthy antiauthoritarians. Or it might be a front to scam mesh anarchist talent into working on resilient networking infrastructure for the army, because they surely would fit the bill of "groups coordinating in remote areas" (I don't really believe that, they have wildly different problems and options).

Re: Volk Fi: Distributed network smartphone

#80

Post by eleitl »

Robin_Message wrote: post #64
angel_j wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What if you used the noise as the carrier wave for the signal? Like, if in an urban area you have a "stable" probability distribution of noise, modulate that.

You're being downvited because, whilst this is a clever sounding idea, unfortunately it doesn't work like that. The noise is random, so you can't modulate it because you can't predict what it will be. A probability distribution isn't enough; say you want to modulate by XORing with a random, uniformly distributed stream of zeros and ones. Knowing that distribution doesn't enable the receiver to extract the data. (Fun…

Do you know why digital pulse radios never happened?
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