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Stomach of Dead Whale Contained 'Nothing but Nonstop Plastic'

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Re: Stomach of Dead Whale Contained 'Nothing but Nonstop Plastic'

#361

Post by jogjayr »

BadassFractal wrote: post #2

Not sure much can be done here without global investment and adherence to never dumping plastics that are not biodegradable. The solution must be possible, but finding the will and the support to convince every country in the world to switch sounds incredibly tough. The US could flex its economic muscle here and say that it will not accept products from abroad unless they're packaged according to its new standards wi…

There's no such thing as "biodegradable" plastics. Plant-based plastics only biodegrade in commercial composting facilities. This is not something that's commonly known.

Re: Stomach of Dead Whale Contained 'Nothing but Nonstop Plastic'

#362

Post by SupremeCO2 »

kirkules wrote: post #41
NeedMoreTea wrote: post #24

I do wonder when humanity will change our ways to stop wrecking the only planet we have, while there's still a chance. First step is acknowledging plastic is a systemic problem that is rapidly becoming more trouble than it is worth. Then regulation to require degradable alternatives, re-use and dramatically reduce our consumption in the first place. Or do we just keep relying on the economic myth of infinite growth u…

Plastic is just an example. Greenhouse gases are another. The system in which it's a systemic problem already has and will continue to introduce other such problems. And it's more than just that "under capitalism there is no incentive to eliminate negative externalities", which is certainly true; without a way to avoid unaccountable concentrations of power, concentrated power will reinforce itself and find a way to c…

I've taken to burning paper trash to offset the CO2 depletion caused by greenies' reduction programs. I can't do it alone, it takes a team effort to ensure there's more CO2 in the air for plants to breathe in the future!

Re: Stomach of Dead Whale Contained 'Nothing but Nonstop Plastic'

#363

Post by humbledrone »

AnthonyMouse wrote: post #285
dev_dull wrote: post #259

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You think illegal fishermen in the Philippines (where the bulk of the waste in the whale originated according to the article) really care you’ve outlawed plastic fishing nets? Your solution needs to be extremely incentivized and also easy to enforce in those places of the world. “Banning” something will have a laughable impact and only affect people who never created the waste in the first place.

What you could do is subsidize biodegradable fishing nets so that they're cheaper than plastic ones. Then everyone everywhere stops using plastic ones because the only reason they were used to begin with was that they're cheaper. That also requires the government rather than industry to pay the cost of its regulations, and explicitly choose how to raise the money rather than implicitly taxing fishermen (and fish) wit…

Why would the fishermen not be the optimal finding source? Basically the premise here is that their use of plastic nets is already externalizing a cost onto society. Forcing them to pay for nets that cause less externalities just means we're moving the cost away from all of society and back to those who are benefitting from it.

Re: Stomach of Dead Whale Contained 'Nothing but Nonstop Plastic'

#364

Post by [deleted] »

cageface wrote: post #154
z3t4 wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You also have to account the supplements needed for a pure vegan diet. The best option is probably to buy the fish fresh from your local fisherman.

The only supplement needed on a vegan diet is minimal amounts of b12, and that’s only necessary because sanitation kills the bacteria that produce it. The environmental footprint of a vegan diet is way lower than even that of a pescavore.

[deleted]

Re: Stomach of Dead Whale Contained 'Nothing but Nonstop Plastic'

#365

Post by z3t4 »

cageface wrote: post #58
ehnto wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am not sure that is good advice. Fixing the fishing industry is important, overfishing is rampant as is plastic waste from it. But fish is probably one of the best alternatives we have to other environmentally unfriendly meats we currently raise. As populations grow it is proving to be key to keeping everyone fed. Farmed fish most importantly will soon be the majority of fish consumed. Getting ocean based fishing t…

We don't need to eat meat or fish at all to be healthy, and meat & fish are very resource intensive. We're better off redirecting all the resources we currently waste trying to feed 8 billion people this way into sustainable, plant-based diets anyway.

You might stop eating fish to not support the finishing industry, but then you might start supporting the fish oil industry which is even worse. It's better to buy from small time local fishermen or fish yourself. Fresh fish also taste better.

Re: Stomach of Dead Whale Contained 'Nothing but Nonstop Plastic'

#366

Post by Ultramanoid »

Ultramanoid wrote: post #17
hbarka wrote: post #7

Why hasn’t Amazon, Costco, or Walmart used their clout to effect a positive change? Have you seen all the plastic and unnecessary packaging in the goods they sell. The size of the packaging relative to the actual product is so ridiculous sometimes.

I routinely reply on Amazon's feedback that packaging was clearly excessive whenever I am given the change to do so. To receive a micro SD card in (1) a plastic container, inside a (2) cardboard container, inside an (3) A4 Amazon cardboard envelope is bordering criminal.

* chance

Re: Stomach of Dead Whale Contained 'Nothing but Nonstop Plastic'

#367

Post by QuantumAphid »

throwaway413 wrote: post #352
QuantumAphid wrote: post #347

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Isn't consuming human breastmilk and being vegan/animal-free a contradiction? Thanks for sharing & best wishes for your family's health. I hope you have allowed for proper vaccinations.

To be honest I haven't put much thought into that perspective, it's a good question. Breastfeeding was never a question for us, even on a vegan diet. I wonder what other vegans think of this question. As I continued being vegan, I realized that the spectrum which is actually important is raw vs. processed foods, and less so meat vs plants. I think a lot of people who "do vegan right" end up just eat less processed cr…

"I think a lot of people who "do vegan right" end up just eat less processed crap in general and end up being healthy, not necessarily because of eating less/no meat."

I agree 100%. Some of the biggest benefits of any diet are obtained by getting back to simple foods and away from highly processed foods/carbs mixed with seed oils and sugars. Ditch that stuff and you'll likely do well on just about any diet.

Re: Stomach of Dead Whale Contained 'Nothing but Nonstop Plastic'

#368

Post by kirkules »

NeedMoreTea wrote: post #313
kirkules wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Plastic is just an example. Greenhouse gases are another. The system in which it's a systemic problem already has and will continue to introduce other such problems. And it's more than just that "under capitalism there is no incentive to eliminate negative externalities", which is certainly true; without a way to avoid unaccountable concentrations of power, concentrated power will reinforce itself and find a way to c…

Agree with most of this. I don't want to though - I find it inherently depressing that we simply can't or won't do better. I want my kids to have a half decent life. We seem destined to keep right on trucking until we drive right off the cliff of collapse. I don't agree it has to be the way of capitalism though, it's a problem of unfettered capitalism. We have more than enough history to know. Post war we were happy…

I don't mean it has to be the way of capitalism, but I've become pretty cynical about how long the kind of capitalism we'd prefer can last, precisely because capitalism (which is actually superbly poorly defined wherever it's used and you and I likely aren't even referring to the same thing in the end) seems to inherently enable concentrations of wealth and power.

That said, I recognize that I don't know what the right alternative should be.

Re: Stomach of Dead Whale Contained 'Nothing but Nonstop Plastic'

#369

Post by AnthonyMouse »

humbledrone wrote: post #363
AnthonyMouse wrote: post #285

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What you could do is subsidize biodegradable fishing nets so that they're cheaper than plastic ones. Then everyone everywhere stops using plastic ones because the only reason they were used to begin with was that they're cheaper. That also requires the government rather than industry to pay the cost of its regulations, and explicitly choose how to raise the money rather than implicitly taxing fishermen (and fish) wit…

Why would the fishermen not be the optimal finding source? Basically the premise here is that their use of plastic nets is already externalizing a cost onto society. Forcing them to pay for nets that cause less externalities just means we're moving the cost away from all of society and back to those who are benefitting from it.

You're assuming that they're the ones benefiting from it.

Suppose they use plastic nets and that makes fishing less expensive, but they all do that and it's a commodity market so they don't get to keep any of that money, it just means that it reduces the price of fish.

Now we need them to use more expensive nets. If we put the cost of them on the fisherman, it raises the price of fish, a healthier source of protein than many of the alternatives (e.g. red meat), and raises the price of food in general. Not super great as an outcome.

If we put the cost of them on coal companies, it raises the price of coal. Coal has nothing to do with fishing net, but we're actually trying to discourage coal, so since taxing coal burning is better than taxing fish eating, that may be a better choice.

Re: Stomach of Dead Whale Contained 'Nothing but Nonstop Plastic'

#370

Post by thereare5lights »

onion2k wrote: post #52
thereare5lights wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That makes no sense. If they were doing that, why would they stop taking free money.

The piles of trash grew too big. The money wasn't worth it any more.

Grew too big for the ocean? What?
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