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Cockpit voice recorder of Lion Air jet depicts pilots' frantic search for fix

reuters.com

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Re: Cockpit voice recorder of Lion Air jet depicts pilots' frantic search for fix

#21

Post by Arn_Thor »

CyberFonic wrote: post #10

One of the factors that has been quickly glossed over is the low level of experience of some of the pilots in both the Indonesian and Ethopian accidents. In the USA, due to much higher levels of experience pilots have been correcting for the MCAS actions effectively and complaining about it to NASA (in order to avoid being branded as whistle-blowers by their airlines).

That has not been glossed over at all, people bring it up all the time, especially in reference to Lion Air. But it's not a unifying factor in the two cases. Ethiopian Airlines has a very good safety track record and I have not seen it reported that they operate with more inexperienced pilots than elsewhere.

Re: Cockpit voice recorder of Lion Air jet depicts pilots' frantic search for fix

#22

Post by duncans »

CyberFonic wrote: post #10

One of the factors that has been quickly glossed over is the low level of experience of some of the pilots in both the Indonesian and Ethopian accidents. In the USA, due to much higher levels of experience pilots have been correcting for the MCAS actions effectively and complaining about it to NASA (in order to avoid being branded as whistle-blowers by their airlines).

Wasn't at least one of the Ethiopian Air guys quite experienced?

Re: Cockpit voice recorder of Lion Air jet depicts pilots' frantic search for fix

#23

Post by mhandley »

dannyw wrote: post #18
CyberFonic wrote: post #10

One of the factors that has been quickly glossed over is the low level of experience of some of the pilots in both the Indonesian and Ethopian accidents. In the USA, due to much higher levels of experience pilots have been correcting for the MCAS actions effectively and complaining about it to NASA (in order to avoid being branded as whistle-blowers by their airlines).

I’d be highly concerned of the competency of any pilot who complains to NASA.

NASA runs the airline safety reporting system ASRS, which is where pilots anonymously report potential safety issues.

Re: Cockpit voice recorder of Lion Air jet depicts pilots' frantic search for fix

#24

Post by taejo »

dannyw wrote: post #18
CyberFonic wrote: post #10

One of the factors that has been quickly glossed over is the low level of experience of some of the pilots in both the Indonesian and Ethopian accidents. In the USA, due to much higher levels of experience pilots have been correcting for the MCAS actions effectively and complaining about it to NASA (in order to avoid being branded as whistle-blowers by their airlines).

I’d be highly concerned of the competency of any pilot who complains to NASA.

NASA is indeed where pilots confidentially report aviation safety problems: https://asrs.arc.nasa.gov/

It is, after all, the National Aeronautics and Space Administration.

Re: Cockpit voice recorder of Lion Air jet depicts pilots' frantic search for fix

#25

Post by ahoka »

cjbprime wrote: post #6
RidingPegasus wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Was the trim wheel not visibly spinning out of their control? Simply because the symptoms are different should mean that stopping it via taking manual control is a recurring option.

The spin was not visible to these pilots presumably because it was happening in small increments with a delay between them.

If anyone wonders this is how it looks like: https://youtu.be/-X01uY0bJs0?t=48

Re: Cockpit voice recorder of Lion Air jet depicts pilots' frantic search for fix

#26

Post by tialaramex »

dannyw wrote: post #18
CyberFonic wrote: post #10

One of the factors that has been quickly glossed over is the low level of experience of some of the pilots in both the Indonesian and Ethopian accidents. In the USA, due to much higher levels of experience pilots have been correcting for the MCAS actions effectively and complaining about it to NASA (in order to avoid being branded as whistle-blowers by their airlines).

I’d be highly concerned of the competency of any pilot who complains to NASA.

You think people using the provided incident reporting anonymity scheme are... Incompetent?

Or you yourself are actually incompetent because you thought that you should comment about this without knowing that NASA runs ASRS which is exactly what this is for?

Re: Cockpit voice recorder of Lion Air jet depicts pilots' frantic search for fix

#27

Post by piquadrat »

StreamBright wrote: post #20
zw123456 wrote: post #13

The thing I don't understand about that MCAS system is why it would continue to drive the nose of the plane down even when the pilot is reefing on the stick to pull up. The cruise control in my car automatically disengages when I hit the brakes, it doesn't continue to accelerate to keep the car going 60 while I am jamming on the brakes, in an emergency, I don't have time to find the off switch. Similarly, I would thi…

Flight augmentation systems work a different way. Those take into consideration all inputs and average it out. Same when two pilots give different instructions.

> Same when two pilots give different instructions.

That's only true for Airbus (and probably contributed to the loss of Air France 447, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_France_Flight_447). In Boeing airplanes, the movement of the two yokes is synchronized.

Re: Cockpit voice recorder of Lion Air jet depicts pilots' frantic search for fix

#28

Post by disillusioned »

duncans wrote: post #22
CyberFonic wrote: post #10

One of the factors that has been quickly glossed over is the low level of experience of some of the pilots in both the Indonesian and Ethopian accidents. In the USA, due to much higher levels of experience pilots have been correcting for the MCAS actions effectively and complaining about it to NASA (in order to avoid being branded as whistle-blowers by their airlines).

Wasn't at least one of the Ethiopian Air guys quite experienced?

The pilot had 8000 hours...

Re: Cockpit voice recorder of Lion Air jet depicts pilots' frantic search for fix

#30

Post by dukoid »

RidingPegasus wrote: post #3
cjbprime wrote: post #2

This appears to answer the question of why, given that there is a "memory item" for dealing with runaway trim that would have helped, it wasn't followed by the crew: > “They didn’t seem to know the trim was moving down,” the third source said. “They thought only about airspeed and altitude. That was the only thing they talked about.” If this is true, not only did the pilots not realize the trim was the cause of the d…

Was the trim wheel not visibly spinning out of their control? Simply because the symptoms are different should mean that stopping it via taking manual control is a recurring option.

To my understanding, the trim wheels are moving frequently for small adjustments -- and it's possible to switch the wheel movement off if this becomes too annoying.
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