China's e-buses dent oil demand more than electric cars do • Hacker News Board

Re: China's e-buses dent oil demand more than electric cars do

#141

Post by [deleted] » Wed, Mar 20, 2019, 6:53 AM UTC

austincheney wrote: post #95

desdiv wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's simply not true. It started out as a factoid, but got jumbled into nonsense by a game of telephone: 1. True: 16 of the world’s largest ships produce as much _sulfur_ pollution as all the world’s cars.[1] 2. False: "How 16 ships create as much pollution as all the cars in the world", headline from Daily Mail.[2] 3. False: "world's 6 largest shipping tankers produce more CO2 than all the world's personal vehicles…

> Separate studies suggest that maritime carbon dioxide emissions are not only higher than previously thought, but could rise by as much as 75% in the next 15 to 20 years if world trade continues to grow and no action is taken. The figures from the oil giant BP, which owns 50 tankers, and researchers at the Institute for Physics and Atmosphere in Wessling, Germany reveal that annual emissions from shipping range betw…

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Re: China's e-buses dent oil demand more than electric cars do

#142

Post by Razengan » Wed, Mar 20, 2019, 6:56 AM UTC

twblalock wrote: post #57

Razengan wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> population is not really the problem anyway. > Dire predictions Those are not only predictions, but existing examples. I invite you to visit the slums of developing/"third-world" countries, or even just see images/videos of them. > regulating reproduction is a violating of the most basic human freedoms. We regulate MANY things that are also basic human freedoms.

> They are not predictions. I invite you to visit the slums of developing/"third-world" countries, or even just see images/videos of them. Slums are not caused by overpopulation. They are caused by poverty and lack of opportunity, often abetted by bad government policy. Tiny countries with small populations have slums.

There are entire cities, one after the other, that are like one big slum. You can see for yourself on Google Earth etc.

Many of their problems are caused by overcrowdedness, and there are few ways to fix that without stealing even more space from nature and other species.

As for poverty and lack of opportunity, what do you propose would fix that? Honest question, because this will lead to more problems that need to be pointed out.

Re: China's e-buses dent oil demand more than electric cars do

#143

Post by [deleted] » Wed, Mar 20, 2019, 6:58 AM UTC

7952 wrote: post #131

Razengan wrote: post #26

Excuse me for this tangent, but when it comes to environmental concerns, why do we still skirt around the largest elephant in the room? Curbing population growth. We have laws against almost every "natural human instinct/desire": X Murder X Rape X Theft, even if you're stealing food when you're starving X Taking shelter in property that you don't own, even if you were freezing to death X In some countries: Being with…

In this thread you haven't been shut down have you? Lots of carefully thought out arguments. I am very suspicious of overpopulation arguments because it is a stalking hourse for alt-right style ethno nationalism. Rather than addressing issues it is a veiled attack on "lefties" and liberals. Blaming the entire environmental crisis on our reluctance to adopt authoritarian controls. And playing on perceived inconsistenc…

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Re: China's e-buses dent oil demand more than electric cars do

#144

Post by m0zg » Wed, Mar 20, 2019, 6:59 AM UTC

pestaa wrote: post #135

m0zg wrote: post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> 66 billion trees planted so far News in 10-20 years: massive wildfires decimate Africa. It's pointless and dangerous to have more trees than the waterbed can support. California re-learns this lesson nearly every year.

How is wildfire automatically a bigger threat with more trees? Is it because with more trees given the same quantity of water, the drier wood helps the fire spreads more quickly? Or perhaps the forest is more densely populated? But that doesn't increase the vulnerable area. Pardon my ignorance, I'd like to know more.

When there's not enough water for trees to survive, they die and dry out. Dry brush and trees catch fire more readily and burn better.

Re: China's e-buses dent oil demand more than electric cars do

#145

Post by paganel » Wed, Mar 20, 2019, 7:02 AM UTC

benj111 wrote: post #140

paganel wrote: post #138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is a problem with reforestation since its very beginning, not sure why China is singled out here for repeating the West’s mistakes.

Is China getting singled out? The West tried it, not knowing because it had never been done before, and found it had issues. I would expect the West to be criticised as much, if not more so for doing the same thing today.

It looked like a surprise for some posters here, yeah, they seem to didn’t know that the same has been happening in the West since as early as the late 1700s-early 1800s and I’d say it’s still happening. The West is not being criticized as much as it should today for repeating the same mistake it has been doing again and again for almost two centuries now.

Later edit: This forest which got knocked out during a recent wind-storm in the Italian Dolomites [1] looks like being an "artificial" one, at least judging by how the remaining trees all look the same and are almost geometrically positioned. The article does indeed say that the forest was "centuries-old" but I think that only better underlines what I was saying, that the West has been repeating the same and same mistake (i.e. "dumb", non-thought out reforestation) for centuries now. It's too bad that with the recent climate-related changes our tampering with the ecosystem is really shown for what it is: a really, really dumb and non-thought out action.

[1] https://www.italymagazine.com/news/storms-italys-dolomites-r...

Re: China's e-buses dent oil demand more than electric cars do

#146

Post by andyjh » Wed, Mar 20, 2019, 7:05 AM UTC

evolve2k wrote: post #61

This points out a new opportunity. Why stop at China for electric busses (yes they are probably manufacturing them locally)? Cities are seeming increasingly more able to be proactive than countries. Encourage local cities to one by one electrify the bus network and this effect goes global. It’s obvious tangible action that citizens can demand and mayors can visibly deliver. Game for those playing at home, do a search…

Milton Keynes has had electric buses since 2014, which top up their batteries via induction chargers at the end of each route throughout the day: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-25621426

http://www.cbi.org.uk/insight-and-analysis/milton-keynes-wir...

The number of buses is set to increase after the initial successful trial: https://www.miltonkeynes.co.uk/news/more-electric-buses-on-t...

Re: China's e-buses dent oil demand more than electric cars do

#147

Post by cinquemb » Wed, Mar 20, 2019, 7:14 AM UTC

est wrote: post #125

cinquemb wrote: post #19

I think the bigger concern for China in regards to this is slowing the pull on their fx reserves in light of their overall demand [0]. Indonesia and Malaysia are taking the biodiesel approach with decent amount of success at cutting their fx spend [1]. Why China cant pursue something similar to Indonesia and Malaysia probably has to do with their Ag policies/capabilities/climate. [0] https://ycharts.com/indicators/ch…

> Why China cant pursue something similar China plans to push 100% ethanol fuel at the end of 2020.

Source?

I see that they had a goal of 10% by volume[0], I'd really like to see the numbers behind how they'll get that, compared to where there are at now on that. I have my doubts on that number or on any serious execution, sounds dead on arrival:

"By 2020 China wants all gasoline sold in the country to contain 10% ethanol by volume, which is what the United States currently mandates with its Renewable Fuel Standard. Building an ethanol industry is a necessary first step to building the Chinese bioeconomy, but there's a long way to go. China currently produces about 800 million gallons per year (mgpy) of ethanol, with about 500 mgpy derived from corn. Based on expected gasoline demand of 45 billion to 50 billion gallons, to meet the 10% ethanol blending rules in 2020, the country would need between 4 billion and 5 billion gallons of ethanol per year.

It will be nearly impossible to site, build, and ramp up enough new production capacity to supply demand from domestic production alone by 2020. That's why many industry experts expect the Chinese government to turn to ethanol imports to fill the gap -- and only the American market has enough spare capacity to cash in on the opportunity."[1]

[0] https://www.cnbc.com/2017/09/12/china-plans-nationwide-use-o...

[1] https://www.fool.com/investing/2018/05/07/china-is-unlikely-...

Re: China's e-buses dent oil demand more than electric cars do

#148

Post by 01100011 » Wed, Mar 20, 2019, 7:17 AM UTC

thewhitetulip wrote: post #84

By this logic, we should "forget" all the go green initiatives because China (and Africa) are building a "Green Wall" to stop their respective deserts from widening. https://news.nationalgeographic.com/2017/04/china-great-gree... I say this is mainly about China because Africa has modified their green wall project and instead of planting billion trees from East coast to West coast, they are helping communities to thr…

If all you really want to do is sequester the sand, why not deploy some large solar concentrators to roam the desert and fuse the sand into larger grains? It would obviously take a while, but you could have relatively unintelligent, solar powered drones just gliding over the sand and sticking it to itself. Bonus if you can figure out how to fuse the sand into bricks, or 3d print walls of fused sand.

This guy sort of proved it in concept: https://vimeo.com/25401444

Re: China's e-buses dent oil demand more than electric cars do

#149

Post by benj111 » Wed, Mar 20, 2019, 7:21 AM UTC

paganel wrote: post #145

benj111 wrote: post #140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is China getting singled out? The West tried it, not knowing because it had never been done before, and found it had issues. I would expect the West to be criticised as much, if not more so for doing the same thing today.

It looked like a surprise for some posters here, yeah, they seem to didn’t know that the same has been happening in the West since as early as the late 1700s-early 1800s and I’d say it’s still happening. The West is not being criticized as much as it should today for repeating the same mistake it has been doing again and again for almost two centuries now. Later edit: This forest which got knocked out during a recent…

The Irish Times article is highly critical of the West doing the same today. What's the difference between that and the Yale 360 article linked further above?

Edit: In response to your edit. Are you sure that isn't native woodland? I would expect the higher reaches of a mountain to be pine trees. The article mentions Stradivarius, violins are made of spruce amongst other woods.

Plus those forests are obviously somewhat sustainable, the Chinese plantings are dying within a few years.

Re: China's e-buses dent oil demand more than electric cars do

#150

Post by thewhitetulip » Wed, Mar 20, 2019, 7:23 AM UTC

seanmcdirmid wrote: post #105

thewhitetulip wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, at the start they'll die without human intervention, sure. But wait for 30yrs, let the land be revived and let nature take her course. I am pretty sure that we'll see lush green forest near the Gobi desert and the desert might also be pushed back. I dislike the dictatorship in China but this effort is unparalleled.

Trees don’t make water come on it’s own. A lot of the planting is intrinsically unsustainable. That is the problem with top down authoritarian directives, execution is lacking. Follow through is lacking as the government declares success after they sign the order and then forget about it after patting themselves on the back.

A lot of planting is unsustainable.

Pls provide proof. I've seen a list plant 8k trees across a state. I've seen anNgo plant bio diverse forest where I live. So I'd like to know the context that you are talking about