China's e-buses dent oil demand more than electric cars do • Hacker News Board

Re: China's e-buses dent oil demand more than electric cars do

#131

Post by 7952 » Wed, Mar 20, 2019, 6:03 AM UTC

Razengan wrote: post #26

Excuse me for this tangent, but when it comes to environmental concerns, why do we still skirt around the largest elephant in the room? Curbing population growth. We have laws against almost every "natural human instinct/desire": X Murder X Rape X Theft, even if you're stealing food when you're starving X Taking shelter in property that you don't own, even if you were freezing to death X In some countries: Being with…

In this thread you haven't been shut down have you? Lots of carefully thought out arguments.

I am very suspicious of overpopulation arguments because it is a stalking hourse for alt-right style ethno nationalism. Rather than addressing issues it is a veiled attack on "lefties" and liberals. Blaming the entire environmental crisis on our reluctance to adopt authoritarian controls. And playing on perceived inconsistencies in how liberals see the world. Perhaps we have different laws on rape,murder, and consensual sex because they are different things! Your argument only makes sense if you completely ignore any nuance.

I think this is really about fear of immigration and uses climate change as an excuse.

Re: China's e-buses dent oil demand more than electric cars do

#132

Post by VladimirGolovin » Wed, Mar 20, 2019, 6:13 AM UTC

m0zg wrote: post #129

What's the advantage compared to a tram or trolley bus? I don't get it.

No need to build and maintain the infrastructure (rail and overhead power lines.)

The ability to navigate the road freely -- trolley buses often have trouble circumnavigating badly parked cars in their way, sometimes causing the driver to get out to reattach the "prongs" to the wires.

Also, trams are somewhat prone to "tram jams" caused by one faulty streetcar blocking the railway. And they simply cannot get around a badly parked car.

Re: China's e-buses dent oil demand more than electric cars do

#133

Post by macleginn » Wed, Mar 20, 2019, 6:16 AM UTC

Flollop wrote: post #118

tomnm wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Source?

https://e360.yale.edu/features/chinas_reforestation_programs... Not only that, there are concerns around lack of biodiversity in the trees being planted: https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2016/09/160907125303.h...

It is a common concern with reforestation, it seems: https://www.irishtimes.com/news/environment/this-is-load-of-...

Re: China's e-buses dent oil demand more than electric cars do

#134

Post by Sabinus » Wed, Mar 20, 2019, 6:18 AM UTC

m0zg wrote: post #130

thewhitetulip wrote: post #84

By this logic, we should "forget" all the go green initiatives because China (and Africa) are building a "Green Wall" to stop their respective deserts from widening. https://news.nationalgeographic.com/2017/04/china-great-gree... I say this is mainly about China because Africa has modified their green wall project and instead of planting billion trees from East coast to West coast, they are helping communities to thr…

> 66 billion trees planted so far News in 10-20 years: massive wildfires decimate Africa. It's pointless and dangerous to have more trees than the waterbed can support. California re-learns this lesson nearly every year.

I assume there were many more trees in the same watershed before man chopped them down for pasture and cities.

Re: China's e-buses dent oil demand more than electric cars do

#135

Post by pestaa » Wed, Mar 20, 2019, 6:23 AM UTC

m0zg wrote: post #130

thewhitetulip wrote: post #84

By this logic, we should "forget" all the go green initiatives because China (and Africa) are building a "Green Wall" to stop their respective deserts from widening. https://news.nationalgeographic.com/2017/04/china-great-gree... I say this is mainly about China because Africa has modified their green wall project and instead of planting billion trees from East coast to West coast, they are helping communities to thr…

> 66 billion trees planted so far News in 10-20 years: massive wildfires decimate Africa. It's pointless and dangerous to have more trees than the waterbed can support. California re-learns this lesson nearly every year.

How is wildfire automatically a bigger threat with more trees? Is it because with more trees given the same quantity of water, the drier wood helps the fire spreads more quickly? Or perhaps the forest is more densely populated? But that doesn't increase the vulnerable area. Pardon my ignorance, I'd like to know more.

Re: China's e-buses dent oil demand more than electric cars do

#136

Post by austincheney » Wed, Mar 20, 2019, 6:23 AM UTC

throwaway5752 wrote: post #128

austincheney wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> An air conditioner typically consumes in the neighborhood of 4kW That is not true globally. I live in Kuwait, which can get up to 140F during the day in the summer. At any rate if you want numbers (since people are crying about research without doing any of their own) here are some: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19438999

How many days was Kuwait over 130F last year?

Most days May through September experience an average high of actual temperature of around 120F each day with 100% sunshine. Its the heat index that brings it up to about 140F. You have to understand that during the summer here there is relatively lower humidity during peak sunlight which refracts less light before hitting the ground. The ground here is also highly reflective of heat, which is felt at least 5 to 6 feet off the ground (the height of most people).

Another way to look at (and there is a lot of data on this) is which nations produce the most CO2 per capita and then work backwards asking why that is.

Re: China's e-buses dent oil demand more than electric cars do

#137

Post by StudentStuff » Wed, Mar 20, 2019, 6:29 AM UTC

seanmcdirmid wrote: post #103

bobthepanda wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Initial indicators seem to be that they're not ready for prime time. Albuquerque returned BYD buses because of problems with range not performing as advertised. https://www.abqjournal.com/1246094/abq-rejecting-all-byd-art... Battery-electrics still have major issues with range; buses cannot last a full day on a single charge, and midday charging takes too long. And if it gets cold or the route has hills, you're compl…

Hills are the primary use case for electric buses already (electric has much better torque), and have been for a very long time. The only thing is now instead of using overhead lines, batteries can be used instead.

The comparison of how much faster our electrified trolley busses here in hilly Seattle compared to traditional busses is pretty stark, the instant, linear torque is really hard to come close to equaling with a combustion engine.

eBikes with mid-drive motors like the BBSHD also have this kind of torque, it can be really fun to ride them due to that. With electric motors, you choose between torque and top RPMs based on how thick your wire is, the thicker the copper the more torque you'll see (and consequently, lower top speed).

Re: China's e-buses dent oil demand more than electric cars do

#138

Post by paganel » Wed, Mar 20, 2019, 6:35 AM UTC

macleginn wrote: post #133

Flollop wrote: post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

https://e360.yale.edu/features/chinas_reforestation_programs... Not only that, there are concerns around lack of biodiversity in the trees being planted: https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2016/09/160907125303.h...

It is a common concern with reforestation, it seems: https://www.irishtimes.com/news/environment/this-is-load-of-...

It is a problem with reforestation since its very beginning, not sure why China is singled out here for repeating the West’s mistakes.

Re: China's e-buses dent oil demand more than electric cars do

#139

Post by StudentStuff » Wed, Mar 20, 2019, 6:35 AM UTC

seanmcdirmid wrote: post #101

evolve2k wrote: post #61

This points out a new opportunity. Why stop at China for electric busses (yes they are probably manufacturing them locally)? Cities are seeming increasingly more able to be proactive than countries. Encourage local cities to one by one electrify the bus network and this effect goes global. It’s obvious tangible action that citizens can demand and mayors can visibly deliver. Game for those playing at home, do a search…

The opposite is occurring in places like Seattle. The overhead electric trolley lines are coming down as batteries become good enough to support electric buses without the PITA of going off line (electric was already needed for many routes in Seattle because of hills). Electric also makes more sense in Seattle because 70% of its electrify comes from hydro.

What route has been de-eletrified? IIRC Seattle made a big push to invest in the overhead catenary system just a few years ago, as the neighborhoods that have overhead catenary wires were in a frenzy over the mere suggestion that they'd be retired.

The overhead lines do force King County Metro to avoid changing routes (a boon for local riders), and are 50% faster at getting the bus up to speed after a stop. Short of something wrecking the overhead lines on most of a route, I doubt they'll be retired soon.

Re: China's e-buses dent oil demand more than electric cars do

#140

Post by benj111 » Wed, Mar 20, 2019, 6:49 AM UTC

paganel wrote: post #138

macleginn wrote: post #133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is a common concern with reforestation, it seems: https://www.irishtimes.com/news/environment/this-is-load-of-...

It is a problem with reforestation since its very beginning, not sure why China is singled out here for repeating the West’s mistakes.

Is China getting singled out?

The West tried it, not knowing because it had never been done before, and found it had issues.

I would expect the West to be criticised as much, if not more so for doing the same thing today.