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Kickstarter’s staff is unionizing

theverge.com

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Re: Kickstarter’s staff is unionizing

#561

Post by trhway »

swiftcoder wrote: post #555
trhway wrote: post #534

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>problems of labor mistreatment i don't think there have been times in tech when employees were paid and overall treated better than today (maybe the boom 20 years ago comes somewhat close). Even more, I think tech employees situation today beats any other mass employment situation in the history of humankind.

This is generally true for full-time engineers. It isn't true for the vast legions of contract workers that stoke the fires of large tech companies. See, for example https://www.latimes.com/business/la-fi-tn-apple-contract-wor...

yes, the companies are happy to shaft anybody they can (it is just right now they cant do that to tech employees). And i'm all for rising tide for everybody, for [significant] minimum wage increase, for more protections for contractors, for single payer, safety net and universal college education (and for higher taxes to cover all of it), etc. What i'm saying is that tech employees complaining should understand how much better they are off than everybody else, otherwise it becomes just a self-entitled whining.

Re: Kickstarter’s staff is unionizing

#562

Post by drb91 »

tomohawk wrote: post #481
ace_of_spades wrote: post #401

To make this discussion maybe a little bit more solution oriented, what would be your solution to problems of labor mistreatment? Or do you suggest that nothing like that exists? I recently came across an interesting talk by Richard Wolff at Google [1] which suggests that a great solution would be the democratization of the work place in the form of worker coops. It’s actually a tried and true model that works well i…

Start a "consulting" business that provides really good pay and benefits to all of the workers. Be very selective about who you let in. You're now in the business of providing workers for companies that produce stuff. If they want access to your workers, they sign a contract with your company. If some workers don't like working for some particular company, transfer them to places where they like to work. You've now c…

Just to point out the obvious, that doesn't serve the main purpose of the union at all: collective negotiation with the employer.

Re: Kickstarter’s staff is unionizing

#563

Post by drb91 »

edoo wrote: post #153

I've been in a union before. The work ethic wasn't good. They had seminars on how to work less and push back against complaints. They directed the members to engage in behavior that was best for the union while bad for the workers and the company. The union itself is a big business, what would they think of unionizing the union? Unions allow substandard work for equal pay. That tends to hold back the major opportunit…

To be fair, working less is exactly in the interest of the employee. It's much better than the scenario of "40 hours a week on paper but in reality it's whatever the employer needs" that is prevalent in the US.

Re: Kickstarter’s staff is unionizing

#564

Post by drb91 »

bargl wrote: post #223
edoo wrote: post #153

I've been in a union before. The work ethic wasn't good. They had seminars on how to work less and push back against complaints. They directed the members to engage in behavior that was best for the union while bad for the workers and the company. The union itself is a big business, what would they think of unionizing the union? Unions allow substandard work for equal pay. That tends to hold back the major opportunit…

I think this means we need to re-think how unions work. It should be used to create fair workplaces. My concern with the anti-union rhetoric in the USA is that we then turn to the government to protect workers. I think it's a lot better to have a union vs government as long as that union isn't protected from competition like they are today. If we can introduce competition into unions then they might better serve the…

> fair workplaces

What is this?

EDIT: I don't mean to snark, it just seems like an inherently utopian ideal. Material concerns should dictate workspace conflict resolution. I certainly agree with your overall statement.

Re: Kickstarter’s staff is unionizing

#565

Post by Toine »

I'm astonished by the reaction of some people here. They seem to live in a alternate reality where every CEO is kind, doesn't try to reduce labor costs at every opportunity, doesn't treat his employees like cattle, etc. 20th century unions had their issues of course, but using extreme cases of dysfunctional unions is not a argument to totally disregard unions as a concept.

Re: Kickstarter’s staff is unionizing

#566

Post by fphhotchips »

zaksoup wrote: post #549
nerder92 wrote: post #497

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are basically describing ThoughtWorks.

Except afaict the big agile consultancies underpay relative to tech industry big names. Source: fmr pivotal labs

Sure - there are overheads in running a company where people like to work, and there's only so much that can come from the top line in a consulting business.

Re: Kickstarter’s staff is unionizing

#567

Post by joeblau »

Toine wrote: post #565

I'm astonished by the reaction of some people here. They seem to live in a alternate reality where every CEO is kind, doesn't try to reduce labor costs at every opportunity, doesn't treat his employees like cattle, etc. 20th century unions had their issues of course, but using extreme cases of dysfunctional unions is not a argument to totally disregard unions as a concept.

It doesn't look like Kickstarter will have a CEO anymore either[1].

[1] - https://www.theverge.com/2019/3/19/18273318/kickstarter-ceo-...

Re: Kickstarter’s staff is unionizing

#568

Post by drb91 »

my_username_is_ wrote: post #540
bargl wrote: post #223

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think this means we need to re-think how unions work. It should be used to create fair workplaces. My concern with the anti-union rhetoric in the USA is that we then turn to the government to protect workers. I think it's a lot better to have a union vs government as long as that union isn't protected from competition like they are today. If we can introduce competition into unions then they might better serve the…

I agree strongly. Unions don't have to undermine the productivity of a company (and really they shouldn't). A few things that a modern union could do: 1. Place limits on expected working hours. Let the management know that working above 40 hours a week, or needing to be on-call 24/7 should not be the norm. Let management know that using all your vacation time should be the norm. Set minimum amounts of vacation time f…

> Push for equal pay among everyone.

To be very clear, this is not a goal commonly associated with unions, to my knowledge.

EDIT: removed an ill-thought claim.

Re: Kickstarter’s staff is unionizing

#569

Post by sabarn01 »

megy wrote: post #477
conanbatt wrote: post #462

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It should be used to create fair workplaces. You can't get good results through bad means. Unions are fundamentally a destructive endeavor. Their use is practical but limited: the best thing unions ever fought was the state, not employers.

> You can't get good results through bad means. Like a 5 day work week from 6 days? Like 8 hour work days? Like safe conditions for workers. All things unions helped deliver.

There is a reasonable argument that competition for worker and increased wealth in the society also created these conditions.

Re: Kickstarter’s staff is unionizing

#570

Post by danShumway »

49531 wrote: post #219
edoo wrote: post #153

I've been in a union before. The work ethic wasn't good. They had seminars on how to work less and push back against complaints. They directed the members to engage in behavior that was best for the union while bad for the workers and the company. The union itself is a big business, what would they think of unionizing the union? Unions allow substandard work for equal pay. That tends to hold back the major opportunit…

> what would they think of unionizing the union Unions in the US are democratic institutions, so if there is a problem with your union you can change things.

There are multiple democratic institutions I belong to where I don't generally feel like I have the power to change things.

Democracy is great, don't get me wrong. But it doesn't magically mean that representation for your specific subgroup will exist. If you're part of a demographic with 10-15% representation in your union, is it really a crazy idea that your demographic might want to pool its votes together to ensure that you have more collective influence in a process that might otherwise ignore you?

Collective, coordinated negotiation being more effective than individual negotiation is the entire point of unions. It's just not clear to me why those principles would stop applying within a union itself.

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