Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Kickstarter’s staff is unionizing

theverge.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

521–530 of 724 posts

Re: Kickstarter’s staff is unionizing

#521

Post by fwip »

conanbatt wrote: post #512
megy wrote: post #477

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You can't get good results through bad means. Like a 5 day work week from 6 days? Like 8 hour work days? Like safe conditions for workers. All things unions helped deliver.

Higher worker productivity achieved those things, not unions. Those gains so-called 'worker rights' were achieved in countries without unions as well. It's also unmentioned how much unemployment and misery unions also caused in this narrative.

Higher worker productivity naturally leads to shortened hours? No wonder we've all got 15 hour workweeks now.

Re: Kickstarter’s staff is unionizing

#522

Post by crumpets »

naravara wrote: post #239
mlillie wrote: post #134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How would you qualify US style vs non-US style unions? The prevalence of business unionism here?

One of the big problems in the US is that they're organized at the shop level and consituted to represent the interests of their present membership rather than the interests of the workers in the industry more broadly. This leads to some perverse, short-sighted incentives. For example the IBEW, which organizes electrical workers, decided to come out against the Green New Deal even though most of what the GND does wou…

>Green New Deal even though most of what the GND does would create tons of new jobs for electrical workers in the fields of solar and wind power

Very possibly at the destruction of as many jobs in established industries. That's not really a clear win for electrical workers. This is especially true if new employers living off of the GND subsidies decides not to use the senior union members or the union at all.

Re: Kickstarter’s staff is unionizing

#523

Post by [deleted] »

scarmig wrote: post #518
nerder92 wrote: post #509

As a EU citizen, it always surprise me how the popular retoric about unions is to associate it with lazyness. I think is just undermining of what union actually really are. I personally found this as a first step toward a perception shift about tech from which we can all benefit. Unions for instance can help fight this constant non extra paid "after-hours" working culture that force you to do all-nighters and all thi…

Europeans and union members are so lazy, with their 40 hour work weeks and paid time off and extra compensation for being on-call.

[deleted]

Re: Kickstarter’s staff is unionizing

#524

Post by crumpets »

hannasanarion wrote: post #458
naravara wrote: post #340

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>But a huge step down from "Us" This sounds like an argument for full worker control/employee ownership, not an argument against a union.

Ding Ding Ding we have a winner. The only way to solve the inherent adversity in the employer/employee relationship is to eliminate the employer/employee distinction. Expecting owners to be fair by default is to be at the whim of their charity. "Friendly work environment" and other anti-union canards are merely an attempt to paper over exploitative behavior with flowery words. Unions are a stopgap at best. The only b…

>The only way to solve the inherent adversity in the employer/employee relationship is to eliminate the employer/employee distinction.

It has little to do with that. As long as there are managers, there will always been a tension between what the employee wants to do and what the manager is expected to deliver to the rest of the company.

Re: Kickstarter’s staff is unionizing

#525

Post by conanbatt »

fwip wrote: post #521
conanbatt wrote: post #512

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Higher worker productivity achieved those things, not unions. Those gains so-called 'worker rights' were achieved in countries without unions as well. It's also unmentioned how much unemployment and misery unions also caused in this narrative.

Higher worker productivity naturally leads to shortened hours? No wonder we've all got 15 hour workweeks now.

Better be damn sure about that. If you want to live like a worker in the 1850's, you can work 1/5 what they worked.

Re: Kickstarter’s staff is unionizing

#527

Post by crumpets »

49531 wrote: post #226
joejerryronnie wrote: post #118

Well, there goes the high salaries, flexible working hours, and generous RSU grants for tech employees. Have fun fighting and scraping for 2% raises, paying exorbitant union fees for questionable benefits, and dealing with the nepotism and personal politics of your union leaders. And thanks in advance for adding to the unfunded pension liability crisis.

You know unionizing isn't something people do lightheartedly. A lot of planning and working goes into it, planning and working done by the folks who want to unionize. The idea that you only get benefits if you don't agitate your boss too much sounds pretty sad. People don't join unions if they are going to be worse off materially.

>People don't join unions if they are going to be worse off materially.

Of course they do. The difference is that they are tricked into thinking they won't be worse off by the union organizers pretending that it's unlikely everyone will completely lose their job.

Re: Kickstarter’s staff is unionizing

#528

Post by crumpets »

monocasa wrote: post #454
czbond wrote: post #428

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your emotional response to my logical statement doesn't necessitate a downvote.... Edit: it should be inspiring, bc it shows that literally anyone middle class or above can be incredibly wealthy if principles are followed for 3-4 generations.

> Your emotional response to my logical statement Wealth inequality has been increasing for 40 years despite worker productivity rising. Nearly every metric shows the rungs to wealth being pulled away, and I'm the non logical one here? > doesn't necessitate a downvote You were already downvoted before I commented. > should be inspiring, bc it shows that literally anyone middle class or above can be incredibly wealthy…

>Wealth inequality has been increasing for 40 years despite worker productivity rising. Nearly every metric shows the rungs to wealth being pulled away, and I'm the non logical one here?

Yes, inequality increasing because the richest aggregate in the US says absolutely nothing about how the quality of life has changed for regular people. It's a red herring.

If a rich person moves into my tiny town, I don't suddenly become worse off, despite inequality increasing drastically.

Re: Kickstarter’s staff is unionizing

#529

Post by jdavis703 »

nerder92 wrote: post #509

As a EU citizen, it always surprise me how the popular retoric about unions is to associate it with lazyness. I think is just undermining of what union actually really are. I personally found this as a first step toward a perception shift about tech from which we can all benefit. Unions for instance can help fight this constant non extra paid "after-hours" working culture that force you to do all-nighters and all thi…

My sister worked at a charter school. Because of previous labor violations teachers were not allowed to show up before class started (they could only be there for the official class hours). They also were not allowed to stay late after class.

My sister thought this was ridiculous, how was she supposed to setup her classroom and answer questions afterwards? Unfortunately her boss warned her that coming early and staying late was not allowed.

Once unions start adding work rules like this you'll see a push to disable after-hours emails, banning weekend work, etc. So while the trope of the lazy union worker is deeply flawed, there are some problems for workers who want to go above and beyond (and while most non-tech workers don't get extra compensation for unpaid overtime, tech workers who go above and beyond actually are rewarded with equity)

Re: Kickstarter’s staff is unionizing

#530

Post by JauntyHatAngle »

jdavis703 wrote: post #529
nerder92 wrote: post #509

As a EU citizen, it always surprise me how the popular retoric about unions is to associate it with lazyness. I think is just undermining of what union actually really are. I personally found this as a first step toward a perception shift about tech from which we can all benefit. Unions for instance can help fight this constant non extra paid "after-hours" working culture that force you to do all-nighters and all thi…

My sister worked at a charter school. Because of previous labor violations teachers were not allowed to show up before class started (they could only be there for the official class hours). They also were not allowed to stay late after class. My sister thought this was ridiculous, how was she supposed to setup her classroom and answer questions afterwards? Unfortunately her boss warned her that coming early and stayi…

Would a potential solution to this be to negotiate with the Unions to raise pay but increase hours worked to include the before/after class setup times? I don't know the particulars, but these sort of disputes can often arise due to a perceived slight on pay increases or similar, which leads to things going a bit batty.
Post reply on HN