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Open Source Doesn’t Make Money Because It Isn’t Designed to Make Money

ianbicking.org

301–310 of 454 posts

Re: Open Source Doesn’t Make Money Because It Isn’t Designed to Make Money

#301
post #86

Its commoditized the cost to use software to near zero which has created a lot of unprecedented value and products that wouldn't be possible before OSS. Unfortunately most of the wealth created by OSS is being reaped by the large cloud vendors because relatively no-one pays for OSS but they do to host their production systems on it, atm this revenue goes directly to the major tech cloud companies which are using it t…

Was it ever any different?

20 years ago, large chunks of "the web hosting industry" sold access to Linux/Apache/Sendmail/Postfix/BIND/vsftpd/Perl/PHP/MySQL/etc - often (at least in my part of the game) using paid-for WHM/CPanel or Plesk to manage all those.

While I sympathise with Mongo/Redis/Elastic et al, who're having their work packaged up and sold by Amazon/Microsoft/Google in their cloud offerings, I don't recall any outcry about all the open source projects local ISPs and CPanel/Plesk hosting companies bundled up and charged customers access for. I don't remember the authors of Linux, Apache/Sendmail et al complaining about "not getting paid" for their OSS.

I get it that the world has changed, and companies building the OSS they're built on wasn't so much of a thing back then (although MySQL is an example of that from 20+ years back...), but I'm not sure a choice by founders to invest significant resources writing OSS is a reason other companies should not be able to use software with he same licenses in the same way companies have been using it for decades.

I've super curious to see if these new category of licenses work out business-wise, I suspect if they do (which I'm not completely confident they will), that it'll allow development of software on a scale and complexity which the "scratch your own itch" OSS community couldn't tackle. There are almost certainly software project for which the initial coding curve is so steep and high that nobody is going to start working on them in their spare time or as an unofficial skunkworks project or 20% time project at work. It the _only_ people tackling large complex problems as "open source" (in a loose interpretation here) are PhD students, there'll be less amazing software created than if companies like Mongo/Redis/Elastic can pay teams of devs to work on software which while not "FSF certified open source", is still usable and understandable by others in ways that proprietary software is not. I could debug my not-technically-OSS Mongo problems, unlike my Oracle problems. That's not rms's vision of the future. But at least it's not Larry Ellison's either...

Re: Open Source Doesn’t Make Money Because It Isn’t Designed to Make Money

#302

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because they get to use their money and power and seep wealth out of things they had no part in creating. It's disgusting.

Open source software is like oxygen, big companies can burn really big fires and individuals can light their candle with it. We are all responsible for replenishing the oxygen in the air by planting trees. If the oxygen dies, so do the fires. Likewise companies have pinned their futures on OSS. They are investing. Edit: please downvote me dogmatic stallman types

As a Stallman fan, I belive most of us would agree with you that this is how things should be, but ultimately would dismiss your point as utopian because the primary objection is that big companies are not really investing in (F)OSS.

Like with the "Jeff Bezos doesn't like contributions to OSS" rumors, there's a general impression that outside some exceptions, companies are not really interested in keeping a healthy community even if they could ultimately benefit with it.

Re: Open Source Doesn’t Make Money Because It Isn’t Designed to Make Money

#303

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In the 1980s the lock-in was in hardware: you buy this server, you get our OS and software stack. In the 90s and 2010s it was software: you buy this software because others are not compatible with it. Today's lock-in is cloud services. Will people ever learn?

Is it, though? I feel like the nuts and bolts of cloud services are super commoditized and I can pick up and leave whenever I want. Kubernetes on Amazon (where I am) is going to be close enough to Kubernetes on GCP, and even close enough to just buying some servers and running Kubernetes myself. I don't know all the details of how I will do load balancing when doing it myself, but I work at an ISP and I'm sure the ne…

Exactly.

A world where front ends are deployed on a CDN and the back ends are all containers is very commodity driven. Also infrastructure being set up with code on platforms that target multiple providers like Terraform provides more ability to move systems.

It'll be really interesting to see if AWS can keep their margins in such a world.

Given that MS make huge amounts of money from email and have virtual lock in on corporate email it's very possible, but on the other hand perhaps it won't happen if everyone is, as they tend to be, using open frameworks and generally open systems.

Re: Open Source Doesn’t Make Money Because It Isn’t Designed to Make Money

#304
post #292

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Except you don’t work for Red Hat anymore. You work for IBM.

IBM has not completed the acquisition (and when it does,Red Hat may still exist as a subsidiary), so, no, people who work for Red Hat that haven't left and gotten hired by IBM still work at Red Hat, not IBM.

That’s a technicality, and very much a matter of subjective opinion. How many people who worked for Sun Microsystems thought that they still worked for Sun after Oracle bought Sun? From what I understand, it was few enough to have people quitting in droves.

Re: Open Source Doesn’t Make Money Because It Isn’t Designed to Make Money

#305
post #86

Its commoditized the cost to use software to near zero which has created a lot of unprecedented value and products that wouldn't be possible before OSS. Unfortunately most of the wealth created by OSS is being reaped by the large cloud vendors because relatively no-one pays for OSS but they do to host their production systems on it, atm this revenue goes directly to the major tech cloud companies which are using it t…

There is a huge cost. Maintainers have major time commitments, and we hear jobs looking for people's OSS contributions. Which is cool and all until you realize that some people work at Facebook on React and get to publish to OSS as their day job, and some people like myself have kids and a proprietary software job. So I fully support companies offering their software free, except to run commercially. To note, about 8…

[deleted]

Re: Open Source Doesn’t Make Money Because It Isn’t Designed to Make Money

#306
post #281

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> but I don't think the major cloud providers have much of an uncrossable moat Billions of dollars and years of constructions to just start trying to enter the market, where you will fail because your offerings are relatively pathetic on multiple fronts.

Billions of dollars spent means nothing unless it actually takes billions to launch a hosting company. It doesn't.

You'd need to have some damn clever and hard to copy idea to have any competitive edge.

When Google and Amazon are not making their own specialized hardware (good luck implementing your own TrueTime or TPU or competing with them with ML or DB products built on off-the-shelf stuff) they get custom made chips at prices you can't by Intel et al and have things like a very sophisticated SDN backed by a private global physical network infra and enormous amounts of expertise of building and running very efficient DCs. And then there is a software stack which often is literally more than a decade ahead of industry practice.

Re: Open Source Doesn’t Make Money Because It Isn’t Designed to Make Money

#307
It's all about market segmentation. If you price your software at $0, you'll end up with a large user-base (in theory). You can then start pay-services like consulting/support. Eventually you can add new product lines based on OSS with additional bells and whistles.

The reason this works is that once you have a large user-base you can get people to buy your services because you have now developed a stickiness with your customer-base.

Exhibit A: Hashicorp. People started using Vagrant, the user-based expanded. When they moved onto other pay-services, people followed.

The reality is that developers want 'free' stuff they can build with but IT/Ops wants 'pay' services where they get 24/7 support, consulting, etc etc.

No company will be fully OSS because no money = no company. However I can see many orgs support OSS as a customer engagement tool to drive their brand and get a user base that they can drive towards other products.

Re: Open Source Doesn’t Make Money Because It Isn’t Designed to Make Money

#308
post #143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, more a function of businesses having obligations not to waste their shareholders' money. By definition, donations are optional things. A donation be heavily questioned afterward if it is allowed to go through at all. But buying marketing, or support, is a perfectly sensible thing for a business to do.

So what you're saying is, the people currently using the software don't have control over the purse strings?

No, the point is that for many companies noone, including the people with as much control over the purse strings as they can have, is allowed to simply donate money to something. It's not that you need permission from someone to do it, but that for even the top decisionmakers donations as such are not a legally permissible choice unless you can credibly justify it as not really a voluntary donation but buying something of value to the company e.g. marketing.

Re: Open Source Doesn’t Make Money Because It Isn’t Designed to Make Money

#309

The downside of this is that OSS can only be produced by people who have a sufficient degree of financial security. No matter how useful a given piece of OSS is, if the creator is not financially secure they're required to either beg for money, or beg for a job. Isn't it odd that a piece of software, could be widely deployed, forked, starred on Github etc. etc. and yet with all this infrastructure there is no mechani…

It would certainly be interesting to have some form of voluntary micropayments integrated with GitHub. Or, say, bounties for issues and feature requests, where multiple visitors can add their 2c into a shared pot (although that requires moderation to verify the result).

I have seen a few orgs that use bounties. Habitica comes to mind. There are tools to integrate this into github already even.

Re: Open Source Doesn’t Make Money Because It Isn’t Designed to Make Money

#310

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In the 1980s the lock-in was in hardware: you buy this server, you get our OS and software stack. In the 90s and 2010s it was software: you buy this software because others are not compatible with it. Today's lock-in is cloud services. Will people ever learn?

Is it, though? I feel like the nuts and bolts of cloud services are super commoditized and I can pick up and leave whenever I want. Kubernetes on Amazon (where I am) is going to be close enough to Kubernetes on GCP, and even close enough to just buying some servers and running Kubernetes myself. I don't know all the details of how I will do load balancing when doing it myself, but I work at an ISP and I'm sure the ne…

That's only true if you limit yourself to the base infra offerings, or offerings that have direct mostly-compatible alternatives elsewhere.

If I use DynamoDB, I'm stuck with AWS, absent an expensive, difficult migration.

Even with Kubernetes, moving from EKS to your own cluster means spinning up your own k8s masters, which might not be in $RANDOM_DEVELOPER's wheelhouse. And IIRC AWS has their own special things for doing ingress that you'd need to change as well.

Even just going from EC2 to Google's analog might mean rewriting private tooling that specifically uses AWS APIs.

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