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Pika/web: Web Apps Without the Bundler

pikapkg.com

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Re: Pika/web: Web Apps Without the Bundler

#31

Post by frou_dh »

segphault wrote: post #21

This solution pulls in 155 packages from npm, including multiple versions of bullshit packages like "kind-of" that it can't deduplicate. One of the direct dependencies is a library that renders a loading spinner in command line interfaces, which itself pulls in over 20 transitive dependencies. The reason that JavaScript build tooling is so complex and introduces so much overhead is that the ecosystem's culture is fun…

I like the philosophy of no required build step. Once you make that decision, it's like a guardrail keeping you away from the tooling circus.

Do you know of any listings of third-party ES Modules that are designed to be used directly? i.e. their full URLs being present in import statements that the browser sees at runtime. Even toy stuff would be interesting to look at.

Re: Pika/web: Web Apps Without the Bundler

#32

Post by pier25 »

segphault wrote: post #21

This solution pulls in 155 packages from npm, including multiple versions of bullshit packages like "kind-of" that it can't deduplicate. One of the direct dependencies is a library that renders a loading spinner in command line interfaces, which itself pulls in over 20 transitive dependencies. The reason that JavaScript build tooling is so complex and introduces so much overhead is that the ecosystem's culture is fun…

I've said before and I'll say it again, we wouldn't be in this mess if we had a decent standard library and language to begin with.

Re: Pika/web: Web Apps Without the Bundler

#33

Post by ZenPsycho »

"Today, it’s nearly impossible to build for the web without using a bundler like Webpack." Is it? I've gotten by just fine, and webpack is a pretty all or nothing approach. Did everyone just forget how things were done before webpack and NPM overnight? What memo did I miss?

Re: Pika/web: Web Apps Without the Bundler

#34

Post by anonytrary »

segphault wrote: post #30
MuffinFlavored wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> with no build step during development and then what do you do for production, webpack?

I use rollup with an extremely minimal configuration. No transpilers at all, just standards-based JavaScript.

Sorry if this is a dumb question -- but that means you don't write ES6?

Re: Pika/web: Web Apps Without the Bundler

#35

Post by soperj »

sgslo wrote: post #14
TicklishTiger wrote: post #8

Luckily, with native javascript modules, there is no need for any of this anymore. We switched our whole codebase to and it's such a joy now. Never going back to bundlers. Never going back to having a compilation step on the server.

Its a good thought, but you're excluding ~15% of all web users[0] from using your product. [0] https://caniuse.com/#feat=es6-module

Even Microsoft is telling people not to use ie11.

Re: Pika/web: Web Apps Without the Bundler

#36

Post by Touche »

anonytrary wrote: post #34
segphault wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I use rollup with an extremely minimal configuration. No transpilers at all, just standards-based JavaScript.

Sorry if this is a dumb question -- but that means you don't write ES6?

It doesn't mean that, they might only support ES6 browsers (even IE11 has some ES6 support).

Re: Pika/web: Web Apps Without the Bundler

#37

Post by zdragnar »

pier25 wrote: post #32
segphault wrote: post #21

This solution pulls in 155 packages from npm, including multiple versions of bullshit packages like "kind-of" that it can't deduplicate. One of the direct dependencies is a library that renders a loading spinner in command line interfaces, which itself pulls in over 20 transitive dependencies. The reason that JavaScript build tooling is so complex and introduces so much overhead is that the ecosystem's culture is fun…

I've said before and I'll say it again, we wouldn't be in this mess if we had a decent standard library and language to begin with.

We had several other languages once upon a time, but all were proprietary and most only worked through plugins. All were eventally removed from default installs in browsers due to awful security and mobile performance.

Re: Pika/web: Web Apps Without the Bundler

#38

Post by [deleted] »

pier25 wrote: post #32
segphault wrote: post #21

This solution pulls in 155 packages from npm, including multiple versions of bullshit packages like "kind-of" that it can't deduplicate. One of the direct dependencies is a library that renders a loading spinner in command line interfaces, which itself pulls in over 20 transitive dependencies. The reason that JavaScript build tooling is so complex and introduces so much overhead is that the ecosystem's culture is fun…

I've said before and I'll say it again, we wouldn't be in this mess if we had a decent standard library and language to begin with.

[deleted]

Re: Pika/web: Web Apps Without the Bundler

#39

Post by anonytrary »

Touche wrote: post #36
anonytrary wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sorry if this is a dumb question -- but that means you don't write ES6?

It doesn't mean that, they might only support ES6 browsers (even IE11 has some ES6 support).

Ah, thanks that's true... touche...

Re: Pika/web: Web Apps Without the Bundler

#40

Post by miohtama »

sgslo wrote: post #14
TicklishTiger wrote: post #8

Luckily, with native javascript modules, there is no need for any of this anymore. We switched our whole codebase to and it's such a joy now. Never going back to bundlers. Never going back to having a compilation step on the server.

Its a good thought, but you're excluding ~15% of all web users[0] from using your product. [0] https://caniuse.com/#feat=es6-module

Yes and no. For many use cases, this might be justified.

* You are hosting an internal enterprise application and you are forcing all of your employee desktops to use Chrome any case.

* You are not serving a web site, but a business web app, which only works on a modern browser - because it is a business oriented app people are willing to switch the browser to use it. E.g. 3d modeler.

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