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Kickstarter’s staff is unionizing

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Re: Kickstarter’s staff is unionizing

#361

Post by edoo »

bargl wrote: post #223
edoo wrote: post #153

I've been in a union before. The work ethic wasn't good. They had seminars on how to work less and push back against complaints. They directed the members to engage in behavior that was best for the union while bad for the workers and the company. The union itself is a big business, what would they think of unionizing the union? Unions allow substandard work for equal pay. That tends to hold back the major opportunit…

I think this means we need to re-think how unions work. It should be used to create fair workplaces. My concern with the anti-union rhetoric in the USA is that we then turn to the government to protect workers. I think it's a lot better to have a union vs government as long as that union isn't protected from competition like they are today. If we can introduce competition into unions then they might better serve the…

Having competing unions is an interesting concept. It may be a hard sell because technically the primary legal ability of a union is prevent competition among the workers. If you are a rock star you can't get hired at a greater wage. If you are a nepotism cling on you can't get fired or demoted.

Re: Kickstarter’s staff is unionizing

#363

Post by munk-a »

streblo wrote: post #240
navigatesol wrote: post #225

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> No union ever said "Wow, this new CEO and management are super fair and reasonable. We are no longer necessary, let's dissolve and let them take the reigns." What an odd point of view. Homicides are down; should we loosen the laws? If management are "fair and reasonable", what do they care if there's a union on premises? Everyone just goes about their business.

> If management are "fair and reasonable", what do they care if there's a union on premises? Everyone just goes about their business. Do you realize that you have to pay monthly dues to a union? If I were paying union dues and the union didn't serve a purpose (due to fair and reasonable management practices), then I wouldn't want to pay those dues anymore. Everyone just going about their business still involves me pa…

Please differentiate between "dissolving" and "scaling back" if the union is mostly just idle I'd be disappointed if it didn't lower the membership dues. There could be discussions about building up a bank for rainy days, but if the union isn't doing anything but has a steep monthly payroll for administration that's a legitimate criticism... so cut down those dues until it's needed at full force again.

Re: Kickstarter’s staff is unionizing

#364

Post by stcredzero »

tomohawk wrote: post #169

I wish them well, but having family members and friends work in unionized workplaces, it's not something I would ever do. It always seems to degenerate into an "us vs them" sort of thing whenever I talk to them about where they work. Why would I ever work some place where things are so adversarial? You also end up with this 3rd party involved in everything, creating all kinds of "rules" to make things "fair". Want to…

I wish them well, but having family members and friends work in unionized workplaces, it's not something I would ever do.

It always seems to degenerate into an "us vs them" sort of thing whenever I talk to them about where they work.

Even before this news, half a year ago, I pegged Kickstarter as a company ridden with "ideological possession." The clock is ticking, as far as I can tell.

Re: Kickstarter’s staff is unionizing

#365

Post by matthewowen »

fastball wrote: post #353
matthewowen wrote: post #337

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I mean... they kinda _were_

Henry Ford invented the 40 hour work week. Without Unions.

No, he didn't.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Owen#Eight-hour_day

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eight-hour_day#United_States

Re: Kickstarter’s staff is unionizing

#366

Post by EliRivers »

kjksf wrote: post #319
minikites wrote: post #224

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>No union ever said "Wow, this new CEO and management are super fair and reasonable. We are no longer necessary, let's dissolve and let them take the reigns." Name a company with a CEO and management who are super fair and reasonable (e.g. paying employees the full value of their labor instead of profiting from the surplus value created by the employee)

Name a unionized company where this kind of utopia exists i.e. company pays literally all of its profit as salaries. Most of pro-union comments incorrectly assume that unions create some worker utopia. Name unionized company that offers salary and perks comparable to Google. Not to mention that pretty much all unions have very strong pro-seniority rules. Work harder than others? Produce more value than others? Doesn'…

Not to mention that pretty much all unions have very strong pro-seniority rules.

I've not heard that about the UK's second largest union, Unite. I know people who work are part of that union (the people I'm thinking of work for BAE) and when they've talked about promotions and so on, they've never mentioned any kind of union-driven pro-seniority rule, and there is certainly no different vacation allowance for union members.

Re: Kickstarter’s staff is unionizing

#367

Post by stcredzero »

49531 wrote: post #212
tomohawk wrote: post #169

I wish them well, but having family members and friends work in unionized workplaces, it's not something I would ever do. It always seems to degenerate into an "us vs them" sort of thing whenever I talk to them about where they work. Why would I ever work some place where things are so adversarial? You also end up with this 3rd party involved in everything, creating all kinds of "rules" to make things "fair". Want to…

That weird "us vs them" sort of thing is called class consciousness. The adversarial nature exists whether you're conscious of it or not.

That weird "us vs them" sort of thing is called class consciousness.

Both terms are just other ways of saying "groupthink."

Re: Kickstarter’s staff is unionizing

#368

Post by jessaustin »

standardUser wrote: post #323
InTheArena wrote: post #288

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> That's the point, "us vs them" is pretty good upgrade from "me vs them" But a huge step down from "Us"

At what imaginary time in history did owners and management consider themselves part of an "us" with workers? Maybe in some rare, contained instances. You can't take a step "down" from something that simply doesn't exist.

Many family businesses are "us", at least in the good times. Non-family employed by those businesses are seldom under any illusions about being included in that...

Re: Kickstarter’s staff is unionizing

#369

Post by ericd »

max76 wrote: post #195
WillPostForFood wrote: post #164

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a problem everywhere, but it is worse when you are stuck with unionized employees. Compare public school teachers to private school teachers. Higher pay (thanks to unions) for public schools, and lower quality (thanks to unions).

> (thanks to unions) Is there additional information about how unions lower the quality of public education inside the United States?

Look up rubber rooming in NY schools. Basically, they can't fire teachers with tenure (which they get relatively quickly compared to eg college professor tenure) for even gross misconduct, so they end up paying them to sit in a room doing nothing. If there isn't enough budget, they have to lay off newer teachers, even if they're doing well.

Re: Kickstarter’s staff is unionizing

#370

Post by naravara »

jcims wrote: post #330
naravara wrote: post #239

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One of the big problems in the US is that they're organized at the shop level and consituted to represent the interests of their present membership rather than the interests of the workers in the industry more broadly. This leads to some perverse, short-sighted incentives. For example the IBEW, which organizes electrical workers, decided to come out against the Green New Deal even though most of what the GND does wou…

Well done, one of the more succinct and accurate explanations of the shortcomings of the unions I've experienced and have relayed to me (Teamsters, NEA, CWA) in the US.

Thank you. I will say though, that as a shortcoming I think this is largely a consequence of the American labor movement being so small and neutered. If they encompassed a larger share of the workforce I think the pressure from the membership would push them towards being more representative of industrial interests as a whole. But they've been on the back foot over multiple generations of retrenchment now, so the leadership has kind of been captured by insular and reflexively change-averse factions.

The unions that have actually been successful at growing their membership during this era of reaction, such as the SEIU, tend to be a lot more progressive and forward looking.

There is also an aesthetic thing at play here and the older dudes just don't like the idea of tech workers, professional workers, and "pink collar" jobs unionizing because they're not "real" workers. If we made hard-hats and tool-belts part of the standard nurse's uniform we could probably make some real strides. . .

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