Kickstarter’s staff is unionizing • Hacker News Board

Re: Kickstarter’s staff is unionizing

#161

Post by magissima » Tue, Mar 19, 2019, 7:46 PM UTC

czbond wrote: post #114

anonymousJim12 wrote: post #83

Incoming screed in libertarianese about why unions are bad by Paul Graham on twitter in 5..4..3..2..

Mostly libertarian here, but not aware of the full views of the party, so I looked it up. Apparently the 2016 election view states on unions as below which I don't see contradictory to unions. [did this for my own knowledge] "We support the right of private employers and employees to choose whether or not to bargain with each other through a labor union. Bargaining should be free of government interference, such as c…

So "abolish the NLRB" then.

Re: Kickstarter’s staff is unionizing

#162

Post by diminoten » Tue, Mar 19, 2019, 7:46 PM UTC

robocat wrote: post #147

diminoten wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The supply of jobs is much lower in the games industry relative to the demand.

And there are way more actors than acting jobs. Yet they have the SAG-AFTRA union which had a strike to force better working conditions from games companies. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2016–17_video_game_voice_act...

There are "way more" actors in the sense that there are many people who want to act for a living, but the analogy doesn't hold from an education and experience married to that desire standpoint.

Further acting is older than gaming, and those unions were given space to form during a period of time that was very different from today.

Re: Kickstarter’s staff is unionizing

#163

Post by asark » Tue, Mar 19, 2019, 7:46 PM UTC

moduspol wrote: post #151

asark wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Seems no worse than an employer doing the same, directly or via interest groups. Though they do tend to be more equal-opportunity in their support. In both cases the answer to "how do I stop supporting this political action I don't like?" is "Quit. Hope your skills are marketable."

> Seems no worse than an employer doing the same, directly or via interest groups. Well, in one scenario it's their money being spent. In the other, it's yours . You don't draw a pretty clear distinction there?

You get upset that tenants are subsidizing a landlord's political spending without a say? Any time you give money to anyone else for any purpose, for that matter? And "their money" comes from your labor (plus their capital, in some share, yes) as surely as "your money" does. This is a way less clear-cut distinction than you're making it out to be, and may not be relevant anyway:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Union_shop#United_States

Re: Kickstarter’s staff is unionizing

#164

Post by WillPostForFood » Tue, Mar 19, 2019, 7:46 PM UTC

praptak wrote: post #91

msghacq wrote: post #45

It will be interesting to see what this does for developer salaries at Kickstarter. If, as a top performer, I get penalized by joining the union then obviously Kickstarter looks less attractive to me. For unions in our industry to work they are going to have to be very explicit about how they are going to raise developer salaries.

Companies in general are crappy at recognizing top contributors anyway. Tech companies are no exception.

This is a problem everywhere, but it is worse when you are stuck with unionized employees. Compare public school teachers to private school teachers. Higher pay (thanks to unions) for public schools, and lower quality (thanks to unions).

Re: Kickstarter’s staff is unionizing

#165

Post by xienze » Tue, Mar 19, 2019, 7:46 PM UTC

cbhl wrote: post #92

czbond wrote: post #47

Why are tech company staff wanting to unionize? For the most part, aren't tech staff reasonably to well paid - with good working conditions and moderate hour expectations (say 40-50)?

Reasonably well paid doesn't alway hold compared to the cost (and supply) of housing in the bay area; new grads are often forced to share bedrooms even though they make $110k+. (This isn't entirely tech companies' fault -- homeowners are not incentivized to allow housing growth to match new jobs, and California has been through many booms and busts in the past, so it is conservative in building out new capacity.) Mod…

> Reasonably well paid doesn't alway hold compared to the cost (and supply) of housing in the bay area; new grads are often forced to share bedrooms even though they make $110k+.

Yes, this is true, but I wonder if anyone is going to someday connect the dots between "crazy high average salary" and "high housing prices". Simply raising wages doesn't in and of itself make housing more affordable... it kicks off a feedback loop. When it's not unheard of for tech workers to make $250K-$500K per year (ostensibly to make it easier to buy those million dollar homes!), don't be surprised when housing prices spiral out of control.

Re: Kickstarter’s staff is unionizing

#166

Post by mlillie » Tue, Mar 19, 2019, 7:46 PM UTC

segmondy wrote: post #123

nanokilo wrote: post #3

If this works out, this has the potential to be huge for the industry. I would love to see more unionization in tech, and this could be a first step in that direction.

It's going to end badly, unlike factories where a walkout would but a strain on production. A walkout necessarily doesn't put a strain on tech. Companies are going to embrace distributed teams/remote teams very fast and unionizing will just be a reason to close up shop in that location. That's what I imagine happening, predicting the future is hard tho.

I think it would be comparable, but not equal, to a factory walkout. Without active bug-squashing, DevOps and server maintenance, there is an increased risk of a major outage, which would even affect previous customers as well. Also, most tech companies collect revenue incrementally, via subscriptions, ads and the like, rather than up-front like most factories would. And getting a scab developer up to speed would likely take a lot longer than getting scab factory workers up to speed.

There are some differences as you said. If you're an auto factory that goes on strike, the management is likely still making money—they have all the cars made yesterday and the day before to sell. Of course, the pressure would rise much quicker in a factory vs a tech company; where the latter could presumably float itself for a few weeks, the former would start losing money within days.

Re: Kickstarter’s staff is unionizing

#167

Post by CalChris » Tue, Mar 19, 2019, 7:48 PM UTC

Crunchbase says they were founded in 2009 and have 50-100 employees. They are pre-IPO and 10 years old. Maybe if employees were more owners I think (not knowing the inside story) this might have been less of an issue. Secondary grant?

https://www.crunchbase.com/organization/kickstarter

Re: Kickstarter’s staff is unionizing

#168

Post by madrox » Tue, Mar 19, 2019, 7:48 PM UTC

One thing this article didn't cover was how kickstarter's management reacted to this news and why it's happening now. Are there issues at kickstarter that will be addressed through collective bargaining? Was this move considered necessary in order for leadership to take developer concerns seriously? I'd love to know more.

Re: Kickstarter’s staff is unionizing

#169

Post by tomohawk » Tue, Mar 19, 2019, 7:48 PM UTC

I wish them well, but having family members and friends work in unionized workplaces, it's not something I would ever do.

It always seems to degenerate into an "us vs them" sort of thing whenever I talk to them about where they work. Why would I ever work some place where things are so adversarial?

You also end up with this 3rd party involved in everything, creating all kinds of "rules" to make things "fair". Want to go on vacation? To make things "fair", the most senior people get to pick their times first, and the new guys get the not-so-good times. Don't care about the union's bullshit "industrial action" and just want to work and earn some money? Get used to being called a "scab". You get the point - it becomes more about knuckling under to what the union wants than getting work done or having a career.

Re: Kickstarter’s staff is unionizing

#170

Post by crumpets » Tue, Mar 19, 2019, 7:48 PM UTC

duado wrote: post #102

czbond wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Two questions: Why are tech company staff wanting to unionize? For the most part, aren't tech staff reasonably to well paid - with good working conditions and moderate hour expectations (say 40-50)? Management has the right at a workplace to make any decisions, whether someone in non-management sees fit. Can't people who are frustrated with the company just go pursue a position elsewhere?

Why not take power that is available to you? Management certainly exercises every bit of power that they are able to. The relationship between a company's stockholders and a company's employees is part competitive and part collaborative. Ignore either at your own peril.

> Why not take power that is available to you? Management certainly exercises every bit of power that they are able to.

This isn't true. Management only exercises every bit of power once the relationship becomes hostile. There are tons of things management could do to me to make their jobs easier (e.g. standups twice a day at 8am and 4:45pm with mandatory, in-person attendance) that they don't leverage.

Unionizing when there isn't already a hostile relationship is sure a way to bring hostility into it.