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Stomach of Dead Whale Contained 'Nothing but Nonstop Plastic'

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Re: Stomach of Dead Whale Contained 'Nothing but Nonstop Plastic'

#321

Post by seanwilson »

jeffdavis wrote: post #314
seanwilson wrote: post #311

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "Well-planned" is easier said than done, and requires artificial supplements (we don't have the right hardware for B12 production and plants don't have it). What's so hard or wrong with taking supplements or B12 enriched foods you might have daily anyway(e.g. soy milk)? As far as I understand, our plants lack B12 because B12 comes from soil and pesticide use + sanitising robs plants of the B12 we'd normally get fro…

Cows and sheep have special cultures of B12-producing bacteria held in seperate chambers of their digestive tracts. Rabbits pass food multiple times so they can get B12 from bacteria. Are you that B12 is abundant enough in natural soil? When I looked before, I couldn't find any reliable natural source humans could reasonably consume.

> Cows and sheep have special cultures of B12-producing bacteria held in seperate chambers of their digestive tracts. Rabbits pass food multiple times so they can get B12 from bacteria.

Are they able to do this without any special supplements on modern farms though (e.g. with cows on antibiotics eating grain instead of grass)?

> Are you that B12 is abundant enough in natural soil? When I looked before, I couldn't find any reliable natural source humans could reasonably consume.

I'm not sure to be honest. My point is modern farming interrupts how nutrients would normally get into our food chain anyway so I don't see the big deal in taking supplements directly.

Re: Stomach of Dead Whale Contained 'Nothing but Nonstop Plastic'

#322

Post by InitialLastName »

lawlessone wrote: post #220
cableshaft wrote: post #207

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Some people consider that vegetarian, but I never understood that myself. When I was vegetarian, I didn't eat fish. I did eat eggs, though. Since they were unfertilized I didn't have a problem with them, and it helped me stick with the diet for as long as I did.

>Some people consider that vegetarian, it's a christian cultural thing, mostly catholic. because the church decided fish aren't meat.

Also Jewish people don't consider fish meat for the purposes of keeping kosher.

Re: Stomach of Dead Whale Contained 'Nothing but Nonstop Plastic'

#323

Post by olau »

pvaldes wrote: post #289
cageface wrote: post #35

These stories rarely mention this for some reason but the bulk of the plastic junk in the ocean is discarded fishing nets, not consumer waste. Reducing the plastic waste you personally generate is still a good idea, of course, but if you really want to have an impact then stop eating fish. https://www.onegreenplanet.org/news/ocean-plastic-made-disca... https://news.nationalgeographic.com/2018/03/great-pacific-ga...

First of all this is not your common kind of whale, Is a beaked whale. As a sort of self-declared (minor) expert in the diet of Ziphius cavirostris I can tell you than this whale is not attracted by fishing nets normally IMHO. This species feeds at very deep waters and do not eat fishes normally. This plastic is sunken plastic. I had personally get some kg of plastic from stomachs of the same species named in the art…

Aw, come on, let's get the full story.

Re: Stomach of Dead Whale Contained 'Nothing but Nonstop Plastic'

#324

Post by dragonwriter »

usrusr wrote: post #203
dragonwriter wrote: post #191

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It would be more impactful get three people to reduce meat by 50% than to get one to reduce by 100%. Unfortunately, "meals that don't have a chunk of meat as their centerpiece but that are still far from vegetarian" does not have the same ideological zeal as veganism So, work to get people to try a different appreciate meatless options; as you note, they are getting better. You can reduce meat consumption by eating…

The thing is, I really don't like those dishes that bend over sideways to eradicate even the last bit of meat. I'd be fine making that steak-sized chunk an extremely rare occasion, but don't take away my little flavor bits. Polarized "we cater for vegans and for big-steak aficionados" and then controlling your dosage via some foodie variety of pulse width modulation might be fine for some, but it's not for me. When l…

> I really don't like those dishes that bend over sideways to eradicate even the last bit of meat.

It's not like meat is a natural part of every dish that must be eradicated at some kind of effort to produce a meatless dish, though I'd agree that dishes they start with a meat dish and take that approach are often among the worst of meatless dishes.

Re: Stomach of Dead Whale Contained 'Nothing but Nonstop Plastic'

#325

Post by cullenking »

grawprog wrote: post #194
cobbzilla wrote: post #183

Earlier quoted context omitted.

(I know there are concerns with many commercial fish farming operations today) Couldn't sustainable fish farms, done right, solve this? Tree farms seem to work, iirc the amount of forested land in the US actually started increasing in the past few years.

Fish farms have their own problems especially open-pen ones they use for things like salmon. http://www.alexandramorton.ca/salmon-confidential-booklet/ Tree farms are also not a forest. There's no real ecosystem there. They're just rows of commercially viable trees planted and left until they're old enough to harvest.

This is not the case, at least in Oregon. Our tree farms are generally healthy, left undisturbed for 40 or so years between harvests, and are parceled out so that entire areas aren't harvested at once. All state run timber sales are surveyed to ensure there are no endangered species present, and, are tagged to reasonably protect against runoff issues (can't cut all the way up to a creek for example). The straight row plantations you may have been referring to are generally for wood pulp, AKA toilet paper.

Note: I am not a ecogeek, I just have a brother in law who is a wildlife biologist and works at a firm that does this stuff for the state, and, I regularly recreate (dirt bike, mountain bike, deer hunt) in a few different "working forests" here in oregon. These working forests aren't pristine old growth, but then again I wouldn't dirt bike etc in a virgin forest either.

Re: Stomach of Dead Whale Contained 'Nothing but Nonstop Plastic'

#326

Post by malvosenior »

delecti wrote: post #319
malvosenior wrote: post #206

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are a lot of people (myself included) who actually enjoy real meat and would never switch, so no it won't be happening any time soon or at all really.

My meat eating wife, whose favorite food is steak, prefers the impossible burger and gets it over the real thing when we go out. I've heard other similar accounts as well. Unless everyone like yourself refuses to even try it then it's likely to catch on at least to some extent. And honestly it seems a bit selfish to not at least try the less environmentally damaging option.

I would try it and I would eat it if it tastes good. There are a lot of different kinds of meat that would need suitable replacements though:

* all cuts of steak

* chicken

* pork

* salmon, tuna, mackerel, eel, sea urchin, shrimp...

Ground beef seems like low hanging fruit, making convincing sushi seems more difficult.

> And honestly it seems a bit selfish to not at least try the less environmentally damaging option.

I can think of several reasons people may not want artificial meat. Maybe they think it's gross (test tube meat) or it goes against tradition and culture. I don't think the "shaming" angle works well to get people to change their diet. I know I immediately tune out or get defensive when people tell me what I should do with my personal life. Especially since almost everything is "bad" for the environment. So unless someone lives in a dirt hut, eating veggies they grow themselves, wearing clothes made from their own hemp and never traveling, I really don't take what they have to say about the environment into consideration.

Re: Stomach of Dead Whale Contained 'Nothing but Nonstop Plastic'

#327

Post by scotty79 »

dorfsmay wrote: post #200
scotty79 wrote: post #158

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't mind vegetarian. I rarely eat meat and never crave for it. However vegan just sounds horrible. Eggs and cheeses are incredible, milk, fish, prawns. Cutting them out feels like cutting half of the nutrients out of my diet. I wouldn't risk it unless I had very extensive knowledge and dedication to human dietary requirements and what which plants can provide, which I don't have and won't have.

Aren't fish and prawns animals? Would you still considered a vegetarian if you ate them?

Vegetarianism as I encountered it was 'no meat'. Which basically meant 'no muscle from anything closer to us than a frog'.

Re: Stomach of Dead Whale Contained 'Nothing but Nonstop Plastic'

#328

Post by QuantumAphid »

cageface wrote: post #154
z3t4 wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You also have to account the supplements needed for a pure vegan diet. The best option is probably to buy the fish fresh from your local fisherman.

The only supplement needed on a vegan diet is minimal amounts of b12, and that’s only necessary because sanitation kills the bacteria that produce it. The environmental footprint of a vegan diet is way lower than even that of a pescavore.

I'm guessing you mean "minimal amounts" because B12 doses/levels are measured in micrograms. In fact a vegan diet provides no natural B12 (see note below). This is a serious gap that must be addressed by supplementation/fortification.

Supplements have challenges too (and in fact many studies show supplements to be of little value). In order to attain sufficient B12 via supplements, a person needs to consume many times the RDA value. For example, only 10 mcg of a 500 mcg oral supplement is absorbed by healthy people.

So while technically you may need minimal amounts of B12, it remains an essential vitamin. Getting it in a format which is both absorbable and bioavailable is not trivial and serves as a clue that human physiology evolved in an ecosystem which, to varying degrees, involved eating animals.

Note: For now I'll set aside probable/common deficiencies among vegans/vegetarians in B6, heme iron, the vitamins A, D3, K2, micronutrients and fatty acids DHA, CLA, Carnatine, Carnosine, Taurine, Creatine and others. In fairness, a western/standard american diet can also score poorly in many nutrients.

Re: Stomach of Dead Whale Contained 'Nothing but Nonstop Plastic'

#329

Post by QuantumAphid »

throwaway413 wrote: post #283
Yajirobe wrote: post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> for all stages of life Even for babies?

My son has been vegan for his entire life. He’s 4 now and very healthy. I was vegan for 5 years and about 6 months ago started eating meat and dairy again for reasons unrelated to food. I was raised in a household that ate meat with almost every meal. I have personally experienced pros and cons to both lifestyles, but would argue that in practice , a vegan diet is healthier for most people due to the nature of food o…

Including animal-free "milk" as an infant?

Re: Stomach of Dead Whale Contained 'Nothing but Nonstop Plastic'

#330

Post by randomorton »

cageface wrote: post #35

These stories rarely mention this for some reason but the bulk of the plastic junk in the ocean is discarded fishing nets, not consumer waste. Reducing the plastic waste you personally generate is still a good idea, of course, but if you really want to have an impact then stop eating fish. https://www.onegreenplanet.org/news/ocean-plastic-made-disca... https://news.nationalgeographic.com/2018/03/great-pacific-ga...

It's just bad whale design, if you filter water for plankton's, you get plastics too.

So I wonder if we can build huge whales which run on solar energy and filter the ocean.

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