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Stomach of Dead Whale Contained 'Nothing but Nonstop Plastic'

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Re: Stomach of Dead Whale Contained 'Nothing but Nonstop Plastic'

#221
post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not trying to start the flame war, but this: >We don't need to eat meat or fish at all to be healthy Is still heavily disputed in nutrition circles.

It's not. The American Dietetics Association states as its official position that a vegan diet is healthful and adequate for all stages of life: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19562864 There's currently quite a bit of debate over whether or not plant-based diets are better than other diets, but not over whether or not they are healthy.

Just because ADA endorses it doesn't mean it isn't disputed. And by that I mean specifically vegan diets without supplementation.

Re: Stomach of Dead Whale Contained 'Nothing but Nonstop Plastic'

#223

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are a lot of people (myself included) who actually enjoy real meat and would never switch, so no it won't be happening any time soon or at all really.

Eventually that may be a socially untenable practice, what with meat consumption being linked to so many ethical and environmental issues.

Between the cancer risk posed by red and processed meat as well as the environmental damage, I expect meat consumption to go the way of smoking within a generation.

Re: Stomach of Dead Whale Contained 'Nothing but Nonstop Plastic'

#224
For people saying vegan diets might not be healthy it's trivial to find information online about this:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vegan_nutrition

> The American Academy of Nutrition and Dietetics (formerly known as the American Dietetic Association), Dietitians of Canada and the British Dietetic Association[6] state that well-planned vegan diets can meet all human nutrient requirements and are appropriate for all stages of life, including during pregnancy, lactation, infancy, childhood, and adolescence,[1] while the German Society for Nutrition does not recommend vegan diets for children, adolescents, or during pregnancy and breastfeeding.[7] The American Academy of Nutrition and Dietetics adds that well-planned vegan diets are also appropriate for older adults and athletes, and that vegan diets may reduce the risk of certain health conditions, such as cancer.[1]

> Special attention may be necessary to ensure that a vegan diet will provide adequate amounts of vitamin B12, omega-3 fatty acids, vitamin D, calcium, iron, zinc, and iodine.[1][2] These nutrients may be available in plant foods, with the exception of vitamin B12, which can only be obtained from B12-fortified vegan foods or supplements. Iodine may also require supplementation, such as using iodized salt.[8]

There's well-known athletes that are vegan as well:

https://www.businessinsider.com/vegan-athletes-and-why-they-...

Re: Stomach of Dead Whale Contained 'Nothing but Nonstop Plastic'

#225

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Commercial fishing is a lot less important than commercial hunting was 200 years ago. The sea is bigger, and the industry can switch to new species when one gets depleted (eg cod, salmon and tuna were once far more abundant) but the problems are still the problems. A fishery, like a bison herd, cannot handle the might of a modern industry. Quota systems and controls keep fisheries from immediately collapsing, but the…

(I know there are concerns with many commercial fish farming operations today) Couldn't sustainable fish farms, done right, solve this? Tree farms seem to work, iirc the amount of forested land in the US actually started increasing in the past few years.

It's true that a lot of aquaculture is not great environmentally. There's a spectrum.

Two points though.

(1) Even some of the worst practices are at least relatively localized. For a given tonage of fish, commercial fishing fleets affect far larger areas, with the most productive areas usually most affected. I think practices need to improve a lot, but even with the current below-par methods... Imagine a ranch with terrible environmental practices. They indiscriminately poison predators, overgraze, use bad fertilizers, run effluent into streams... That 1,000 acre ranch is surrounded by 100,000 acres of wilderness (or good tree farms). The ranch is bad, but enough wilderness can dilute its effects.

(2) A lot depends on the species of fish. With land agriculture, we tend to farm a handful of species that lend well to farming. Before farming, people ate different species. Still, agriculture didn't produce bear meat, otter or some other hard-to-raise species to suit the preferences of hunter-gatherers. With aquaculture, we're still often trying to farm otter and bear.

Tilapia & carp (for example) have a long history of aquaculture. It's cheap and efficient and can be done in environmentally sound ways. The problem is that salmon (raised in environmentally unsound oceanic pens) sells for 5X per kg.

To me that means regulation can be sharp. If salmon, cod or tuna are replaced by more agriculturally enclined species... that's a reasonable compromise, IMO. We can have fish, just not any fish.

Re: Stomach of Dead Whale Contained 'Nothing but Nonstop Plastic'

#226

These stories rarely mention this for some reason but the bulk of the plastic junk in the ocean is discarded fishing nets, not consumer waste. Reducing the plastic waste you personally generate is still a good idea, of course, but if you really want to have an impact then stop eating fish. https://www.onegreenplanet.org/news/ocean-plastic-made-disca... https://news.nationalgeographic.com/2018/03/great-pacific-ga...

This is still framed as a consumer problem rather than a regulatory problem--eat fish or don't, market participation isn't going to get you nearly as far as regulation.

Re: Stomach of Dead Whale Contained 'Nothing but Nonstop Plastic'

#227

These stories rarely mention this for some reason but the bulk of the plastic junk in the ocean is discarded fishing nets, not consumer waste. Reducing the plastic waste you personally generate is still a good idea, of course, but if you really want to have an impact then stop eating fish. https://www.onegreenplanet.org/news/ocean-plastic-made-disca... https://news.nationalgeographic.com/2018/03/great-pacific-ga...

This is still framed as a consumer problem rather than a regulatory problem--eat fish or don't, market participation isn't going to get you nearly as far as regulation.

Regulation is slow and difficult, particularly when there are industries with a lot of lobbying money ready to fight it. I'm all for regulation but it will be too late if we don't do anything in the meantime.

Re: Stomach of Dead Whale Contained 'Nothing but Nonstop Plastic'

#228

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Eventually that may be a socially untenable practice, what with meat consumption being linked to so many ethical and environmental issues.

Between the cancer risk posed by red and processed meat as well as the environmental damage, I expect meat consumption to go the way of smoking within a generation.

The vast majority of people in the US eat meat regularly and feed it to their children. There is no way this is going to stop in one generation. There are also plenty of cultures that have meat as their staple. Can you imagine telling Mexicans to eat vegetarian tacos for instance? That simply will never happen, it's too ingrained into culture (and too delicious!).

Re: Stomach of Dead Whale Contained 'Nothing but Nonstop Plastic'

#229
post #208
post #142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Organic and sustainable are not the same thing.

As a rule of thumb I would say there is good overlap. In support of my claim, I suggest the report from Olivier de Schutter, UN Special Rapporteur on the right to food [0]. [0] https://www.resilience.org/stories/2011-03-09/un-report-supp...

Organic according the USDA means that you use manure to fertilize instead of biosolids and you use something like copper-based pesticides instead of glyphosate.

Re: Stomach of Dead Whale Contained 'Nothing but Nonstop Plastic'

#230

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is still framed as a consumer problem rather than a regulatory problem--eat fish or don't, market participation isn't going to get you nearly as far as regulation.

Regulation is slow and difficult, particularly when there are industries with a lot of lobbying money ready to fight it. I'm all for regulation but it will be too late if we don't do anything in the meantime.

The market solution is a non-starter. We need laws.
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