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How Boeing, FAA certified the suspect 737 MAX flight control system

seattletimes.com

131–140 of 195 posts

Re: How Boeing, FAA certified the suspect 737 MAX flight control system

#131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, among other aspects of regulatory capture.

Is the solution to eliminate regulation, so the regulated don't have to bother to "capture it" -- and just decide to live with all the problems regulation can solve or mitigate?

When someone reports a software bug to you, do you often ask them if the solution is to abandon the entire product? This doesn't seem like a productive methodology.

Re: How Boeing, FAA certified the suspect 737 MAX flight control system

#132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> no private certification of stables that lent horses to ensure animals were fit and free of issues of temperament that might cause them to throw a rider. Probably because the culture of the time was that everyone knew horses were dangerous and if you borrowed a horse and it threw you, it was your fault, not the lender's.

Really? Because at the time "everyone knew" sea-bound shipping was dangerous and if you were directly tied to that industry the "culture of the time" was very much bound up in insurance markets that protected against loss. There, the free market did provide a solution, but not for my original example. Because a free market does not solve all problems, even those that might theoretically be solved by a free market.

As far as I know, the insurance for shipping was for loss of the cargo, not liability for injury or death.

As for the free market resulting in utopia, that's an impossible standard. What the free market does do, however, is solve problems in an efficient way thereby bringing prosperity to every country that tries it.

Re: How Boeing, FAA certified the suspect 737 MAX flight control system

#133
post #8

For those who were wondering why pilots didn't override the autopilot? Turns out that just made things worse: ================================================== The discrepancy over this number is magnified by another element in the System Safety Analysis: The limit of the system’s authority to move the tail applies each time MCAS is triggered. And it can be triggered multiple times, as it was on the Lion Air flight.…

Yup. That's fucking insane. 4x the pitch initially reported, and the system 'resets' each time so you're at max elevator down after a couple cycles. Good luck trying to fly that.

Re: How Boeing, FAA certified the suspect 737 MAX flight control system

#134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How many 737s crashed while under FAA jurisdiction? The US has had one commercial airliner fatality since 2009, so it would seem that the FAA is doing something right. Maybe Kenya and Indonesia need some improvements?

Why is this downvoted? It’s a fact. The FAA doesn’t regulate the training, maintenance or competency of Indonesia or Kenya. Under FAA regulations, the copilot on the Kenya crash would have never been allowed to fly: he had just 200 total hours. So somehow that’s the FAA’s fault?

> Please don't comment about the voting on comments. It never does any good, and it makes boring reading.

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

Re: How Boeing, FAA certified the suspect 737 MAX flight control system

#135
post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unfortunately, regulation doesn't fit with the narrative of self-determination and "pull yourself up by your bootstraps" Instead the narrative is about big, bloated bureaucracies, ignoring the fact that they got so big by having to respond and add additional layers every time someone figured out a new way to screw things up, as with Boeing.

I've never heard anyone criticizing the size of the FAA or calls for airplane manufacturers to be deregulated. Do you have examples of this? Or are you just making a general politicized point about deregulation? On the other hand I've seen many people complain about "regulatory capture" between FAA + Boeing repeatedly. That's even on the Wikipedia for FAA. > The FAA has been cited as an example of regulatory capture,…

The article specifically cited funding cuts at the FAA.

Re: How Boeing, FAA certified the suspect 737 MAX flight control system

#136
post #10

Notable and disturbing here is the lack of Max simulators in existence. It looks like neither Lion Air nor Ethiopian nor any US airline had access to one. Also linked in this article is the original FAA table of differences between the Max and other 737 models. It makes no metion of MCAS.

The banner of the EAA website says they have a Full 737MAX simulator [1]. From this Press Release [2], it would seem they were rolling out in Oct, 2017.

[1]: https://www.ethiopianairlines.com/EAA

[2]: https://www.cae.com/news-events/press-releases/caes-boeing-7...

Re: How Boeing, FAA certified the suspect 737 MAX flight control system

#137
post #112

Is there a way to figure out where the 737Max is still being flown? I ask selfishly as I have a flight on Norwegian Air Argentina coming up and according to their seat map I appear to be on a 737 Max8, but there is no indication about the actual metal being flown for their flights, as far as I can tell. Norwegian suspended its use of the 737 Max8 for their main airline, but I haven’t seen anything about their use on…

It is grounded worldwide

So it is. Thanks.

Re: How Boeing, FAA certified the suspect 737 MAX flight control system

#138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is the solution to eliminate regulation, so the regulated don't have to bother to "capture it" -- and just decide to live with all the problems regulation can solve or mitigate?

When someone reports a software bug to you, do you often ask them if the solution is to abandon the entire product? This doesn't seem like a productive methodology.

No, that's why I phrased my comment as a question. When the implementation difficulties of regulation come up on libertarian-leaning forums, it often seems like it's really an indirect way of arguing against the whole concept and practice of regulation (e.g. like this comment describes: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19424511). I just wanted to see if that was the case here or not, hence the question.

Re: How Boeing, FAA certified the suspect 737 MAX flight control system

#139
post #92

These crashes are captivating, especially given how astonishingly safe air travel has been in the past decade or so. If I remember correctly 2017 was the safest year in the history of aviation. And airplanes, particularly modern jets, are fascinating no matter what they're doing. I remember twenty, thirty years ago looking out the towering floor-to-ceiling windows at the airport, marveling at how many different techn…

> Accident investigation is a slow process, and slow processes are frustrating. Information comes in a trickle. It's natural to want to piece together whatever details we have, wherever we can find them. In our hunger to find out what happened, how these 346 people lost their lives, let's not lose sight of the fact that the information we have right now is incomplete. Slow, and possibly corrupted process. If we belie…

This is likely one reason that the French have been put in charge of part of the investigation of the Ethiopian crash.

https://www.seattletimes.com/business/why-france-is-analyzin...

Re: How Boeing, FAA certified the suspect 737 MAX flight control system

#140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unfortunately, regulation doesn't fit with the narrative of self-determination and "pull yourself up by your bootstraps" Instead the narrative is about big, bloated bureaucracies, ignoring the fact that they got so big by having to respond and add additional layers every time someone figured out a new way to screw things up, as with Boeing.

The free market answer would be insurance. As an individual, you probably want some kind of life insurance in the event of catastrophe. Your insurance carrier may require you only ride in such and such certified aircraft (eg, an aircraft that is insured against loss of life). An aircraft may only obtain insurance if it meets certain requirements, etc. Unfortunately, we've got a regulatory body asleep at the wheel, te…

Totally unrealistic. Insurance companies typically assess risk with actual data, they are very reluctant to insure completely unknown risks without a loss history that can be evaluated. Who's going to be the initial ones dying so that the risk can be estimated?
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