Live data from Hacker News

The rise and fall of scientific authority, and how to bring it back

nature.com

141–150 of 402 posts

Re: The rise and fall of scientific authority, and how to bring it back

#141
The article is dated 18 March 2019, but it asks "So: what went wrong?" and then mentions neither p-hacking nor the replication crisis in psychology. Perhaps the author has a rebuttal to those who think that questionable research practices have brought about the fall of scientific authority, but he doesn't give it here.

Some of the problems lie closer to home than the content of scientific journals. Henry Gee is a senior editor of Nature. He wrote an article for the Guardian https://www.theguardian.com/science/occams-corner/2013/sep/1...

Rashly, he attempts to explain p-values, and gets it wrong, saying "For example, one might be able to accord a value to one's conclusion not of "yes" or "no" but "PRespect for scientific authority has fallen because of self-sabotage by senior figures.

Re: The rise and fall of scientific authority, and how to bring it back

#142

The way in which public considers science today is much more analogous to the way the public considered religion during the time of Galileo. Think of the way people are castigated for not believing in scientific "truths". I see signs in peoples yard saying that "in this house, we believe science is real". As someone who has studied biochemistry for years, this kind of reverence for science is truly troubling. The one…

Where have you seen a sign like that? Like what country, and what part of that country? If it's in America, I wouldn't interpret those sorts of signs as evidence of a religious attachment to science, but rather a reaction against the tsunami of anti-science sentiment that has taken over the Republican base and the people they vote into office. The Republican Party has spent the last 10/30/50 years (depending on which historical inflection points people focus on) courting Evangelicals (who themselves are a religious demographic almost entirely unique to the US) and feeding into all of their fears/hatreds/insecurities in order to get their votes and their money. If you've seen signs like that on American lawns, there's like a 99% chance that that phrasing is an intentional low-key troll vs. Evangelicals and their choice of words when they pick and choose what to believe in from both science and their own religion, and how they choose to defend those beliefs.

People not "believing" in science is a huge freaking problem, and is just one of many symptoms of the hellbound handbasket America finds itself in right now. Science by definition is not something you choose to have faith in or not. The only way to disagree with science is more science that disproves the previously accepted science, it's not a choice of faith or belief. The way you can tell that science doesn't function as a faith-based enterprise is the fact that one of the greatest accomplishments a scientist could have is disproving long-held scientific assumptions, which itself can only happen with reproducible results.

For example, a Pew Research poll from several years ago showed that fully 2/3 of self-identified Republican voters were Young Earth Evangelicals, meaning they believe that the planet is ~6000 years old and any evidence to the contrary is either wrong, or a literal test of faith by an apparently insecure deity who will only be satisfied by the basest, most unthinking fealty imaginable. That's obviously going to have an impact over the long term.

What does this lead to? People like Lamar Smith being made the chair of the House Science Committee. Someone who literally doesn't "believe" in science, who has used his authority for the last 6 years to literally squash scientific research that didn't lead to the predetermined conclusions that his faith (and more likely, his donors and voters) assures him are true.

TL;DR I am not at all remotely concerned about people putting signs on their lawns stating that their household believes in science. It's a couple decades too late but whatever. It's a sad world we live in where that's something that anyone feels like they need to publicly state support for.

Re: The rise and fall of scientific authority, and how to bring it back

#143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Have you... read the passage, or done the slightest research into the historical context in which it was set?

Have you? Did you read the article? What in god's name is phd514 arguing with? No where in the damn fine article is the phrase "books of nature" mentioned. The article is describing the context in which modern scientific thought gained currency among the educated and the powerful, both in 17th century Europe and the 19th century Ottoman Empire, how that authority waned in the mid-20th century and today, and how we ca…

It's not at all clear that the books contain "geometry" per se in the painting. I can't find a source either way but if you've ever seen alchemical or astrological figures they could be mistaken for math.

The people were destroying their own books after hearing a new way of looking at the world. How different is this from some kid throwing away his Joel Osteen book after taking a philosophy class? But I agree that this was impulsive and they should have given them away instead of destroying them.

phd514 makes a valid point: this article needlessly provokes conflict between science and religion, even saying with concern that "St Paul is making a comeback", the horror, as if encouraging people to burn books and "reject science" is his main work in history.

Re: The rise and fall of scientific authority, and how to bring it back

#144

The way in which public considers science today is much more analogous to the way the public considered religion during the time of Galileo. Think of the way people are castigated for not believing in scientific "truths". I see signs in peoples yard saying that "in this house, we believe science is real". As someone who has studied biochemistry for years, this kind of reverence for science is truly troubling. The one…

I think people put signs up like that because there's a culture of anti-fact, anti-science, generally anti-thought growing and becoming more vocal and a sign or bumper sticker might make people feel like they're fighting back. I admire science, I'm aware that part of science is challenging itself and new understanding can unravel previous notion.

I don't really know of any science enthusiasts that want to burn the religious or their texts (well, I did as a teenager, but they grew out of it), but I know more than a few religious who want science out of their schools, deeply believe religion should be more involved in our government, and let's not forget the anti-vaccination movement. These people are neighbors and co-workers, and while they themselves are generally not horrible people those sorts of ambitions feel dangerous at best.

Anyway, my point is - I would rather have a problem with overenthusiastic science fans that could use some perspective, than a problem of people not vaccinating their children and "rolling coal"

Re: The rise and fall of scientific authority, and how to bring it back

#145
post #22

The opening paragraphs of this article are just another example of what appears to be an ongoing attempt to manufacture conflict between "religion" and "science". The books that were burned at Ephesus were explicitly identified in Acts 19:19 as sorcery books, not "books of nature". Stuff like this gets published in Nature and people wonder why "science" is losing its credibility?

I don't understand why Nature has decided to dilute its brand by posting these poorly researched, non-peer reviewed blogs.

Nature has had book previews and book reviews for as long as I've been subscribed.

Regarding the article being poorly researched, maybe you have a particular part that you felt was wrong? I'd hope that the author wouldn't need to research his new book before writing about it.

I have no idea how an author would submit a book preview for peer review.

Re: The rise and fall of scientific authority, and how to bring it back

#146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"The situation may be expressed by an image: science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind." Written by Albert Einstein

Source, pls. Where and when did he say that?

It's from the book Ideas And Opinions: https://www.amazon.com/Ideas-Opinions-Albert-Einstein-ebook/...

Some other quotes:

"The highest principles for our aspirations and judgments are given to us in the Jewish-Christian religious tradition."

"Though religion may be that which determines the goal, it has, nevertheless, learned from science, in the broadest sense, what means will contribute to the attainment of the goals it has set up. But science can only be created by those who are thoroughly imbued with the aspiration toward truth and understanding. This source of feeling, however, springs from the sphere of religion."

"His religious feeling takes the form of a rapturous amazement at the harmony of natural law, which reveals an intelligence of such superiority that, compared with it, all the systematic thinking and acting of human beings is an utterly insignificant reflection. This feeling is the guiding principle of his life and work, in so far as he succeeds in keeping himself from the shackles of selfish desire. It is beyond question closely akin to that which has possessed the religious geniuses of all ages."

Re: The rise and fall of scientific authority, and how to bring it back

#147

The way in which public considers science today is much more analogous to the way the public considered religion during the time of Galileo. Think of the way people are castigated for not believing in scientific "truths". I see signs in peoples yard saying that "in this house, we believe science is real". As someone who has studied biochemistry for years, this kind of reverence for science is truly troubling. The one…

>in this house, we believe science is real

Or maybe those people, even if they don't have much of a grasp on the scientific method, see the material progress and results of scientific work and conclude that they're going to place trust in scientific authority?

This is an entirely false equivalence. One can trust scientists even without understanding science, on the fact alone that research produces results that everyone can observe.

To suggest that we have too uncritical of an opinion of scientific research in an age were medieval diseases make a comeback because people aren't getting vaccinated, climate change is routinely ignored, and an atheistic scientist would likely not be able to run for high office based on that fact alone, is a joke to be honest.

Re: The rise and fall of scientific authority, and how to bring it back

#149
post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Interpersonal relationships?

I'm a fan of NVC(non-violent communication) and that framework could be summarized by the sentence, "when you do X,I feel Y". You basically become an instrument that reports on your internal state, plus you're also supposed to avoid assuming anything about the other person's internal state. This is a lot more like science then the usual default of blaming and assumptions and implicit expectations that most people con…

I find that type of communication childing and dehumanizing. To each their own.

Re: The rise and fall of scientific authority, and how to bring it back

#150

The way in which public considers science today is much more analogous to the way the public considered religion during the time of Galileo. Think of the way people are castigated for not believing in scientific "truths". I see signs in peoples yard saying that "in this house, we believe science is real". As someone who has studied biochemistry for years, this kind of reverence for science is truly troubling. The one…

I believe this is a public perception problem. The reason that a troubling number of people no longer believe in science isn't that scientific method is flawed or that people don't believe in scientific method. The bigger concern is the way that scientific studies are mounted, paid for by interested parties that have conflicts of interest to produce results favourable to a desired outcome and then they're presented a…

I would say that an even larger problem exists.

Among the public, science has always had some portion of people who understood it's processes as those of a secular priesthood and those who understood it's processes as discovering the truth through skepticism and experimentation. Even among this working scientists, this division has existed (and given a society that never discarded religion, anti-science along with anti-intellectual views have naturally always been part of American thought).

The problem today is two-fold. Aside from the corruption of scientific processes others have noted, the other aspect is the majority of people aren't seeing the material gains that science offers the world - science is broadly part of progress and when the average American's life expectancy and median income isn't increasing, why would they believe in progress?

Post reply on HN