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The rise and fall of scientific authority, and how to bring it back

nature.com

121–130 of 402 posts

Re: The rise and fall of scientific authority, and how to bring it back

#121
post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> which facts to use? That's easy: the ones that are confirmed by experiments. Feyerabend was correct in calling science "anarchic" in that there is not one "scientific method" that will always point you at the right facts. Scientists do whatever works. But Feyerabend was wrong in thinking that, because of that, "all facts are alternative facts". It is possible to establish facts. You do that by experiments. It's jus…

It's easy if you're deciding between two masses for an electron. In that case you've already decided that some theory which describes electrons is the one for you--so in that context one is a fact that the other is just plain false. But it gets tricky in cases where you're deciding between facts whose enclosing theories are incompatible. Is gravity a force, or is it an acceleration? Each is a fact in its own theory--…

> it gets tricky in cases where you're deciding between facts whose enclosing theories are incompatible. Is gravity a force, or is it an acceleration?

This isn't deciding between facts. It's deciding between different theoretical interpretations of the same facts. The facts of gravity didn't change when Einstein discovered General Relativity. All that changed was the theoretical model.

> Your epistemology appears to allow for the absoluteness of facts to be itself an absolute fact.

I don't know what you mean by "facts" if facts aren't absolute. Once you do an experiment and record certain results, those results don't change. That's why we call them facts.

If you are claiming that those facts can change when we change theoretical models, I have no idea why you believe that. If you're agreeing that those facts don't change when we change theoretical models, then at least we agree on that, and then it's just a matter of me thinking your use of language is highly idiosyncratic.

> If one highschool uses textbooks that acknowledge that the philosophy of science is not itself a science--and presents the various competing views, and another highschool uses textbooks that assert the absolute truth of scientific facts without justification--which highschool produces more parents that opt their children out of vaccinations?

You're assuming that opting children out of vaccinations is necessarily a bad thing. But it might not be.

Consider: when you vaccinate someone, there is a balance between two risks. If the person is vaccinated, there is some probability that they will suffer harm due to the vaccination. If the person is not vaccinated, there is some probability that they will suffer harm from catching the disease the vaccine protects against.

In the world of half a century ago, when I was getting all the usual shots as a child, the second risk was demonstrably much higher than the first, because all of those diseases were common enough that the probability of catching them if you weren't vacccinated was significant, while the probability of suffering harm due to the vaccine was small (but not zero).

But in the world of today, where all of those diseases are extremely rare--precisely because of such a huge fraction of the population getting vaccinated in the past--the probability of catching the disease if you aren't vaccinated is much lower. So now even a much lower probability of some kind of harm from the vaccine itself can justify not getting vaccinated. And since probabilities that low are very hard to assess anyway, it is by no means unreasonable for some parents to be unwilling to vaccinate their children without having to have any wacky beliefs. For example, if a parent has a concern about the mercury in thimerosal (a common preservative used in vaccines), even if the risk of that harm is low, it might still be enough for a reasonable parent not to take the risk.

Note that this logic also allows parents to adjust to further changes, such as the recent increase in incidence of a number of diseases like measles. Such an increase pushes the tradeoff back towards vaccination even if there are low probability risks from the vaccine that haven't been fully quantified.

Re: The rise and fall of scientific authority, and how to bring it back

#122
post #51
post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How is the common man supposed to know that there isn't anything strange in the vaccine? Governments have forcibly sterilised segments of their population before.

Ask your doctor about it instead of listening to a Facebook group.

After the opioid crisis why should I trust my doctor?

Re: The rise and fall of scientific authority, and how to bring it back

#123
post #50
post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Religion and science derive understanding about the world in fundamentaly different and incompatible ways. To call it religion is just incorrect.

Thomas Kuhn would disagree.

One thing I found very valuable in The Structure of Scientific Revolutions was a quick shortcut to telling if a field is doing "normal science" or not. If students are taught with textbooks distilling the field's important insights in a readable form then it probably is. The originator of an important idea is rarely the most skilled at expressing it to newcomers, but if your field can't tell if a rephrasing of an idea is still true or if it is more concerned with the prestige of the founders than the amassing of truth then it will tend to use original texts.

Re: The rise and fall of scientific authority, and how to bring it back

#124

The way in which public considers science today is much more analogous to the way the public considered religion during the time of Galileo. Think of the way people are castigated for not believing in scientific "truths". I see signs in peoples yard saying that "in this house, we believe science is real". As someone who has studied biochemistry for years, this kind of reverence for science is truly troubling. The one…

I believe this is a public perception problem. The reason that a troubling number of people no longer believe in science isn't that scientific method is flawed or that people don't believe in scientific method. The bigger concern is the way that scientific studies are mounted, paid for by interested parties that have conflicts of interest to produce results favourable to a desired outcome and then they're presented as science instead of politics.

When one can't trust the information they're looking at without having to dig into the political backing of the study and the results and without having to wonder which outliers have been trimmed to further hammer home the point of the stakeholders, we're no longer looking at science, we're looking at propaganda.

So the problem isn't science. The problem is the manner in which science is being subverted for financial gain. That's not science.

This is why science is losing credibility and authority outside of scientific circles.

If you want credibility and authority, you have to not only act with integrity, you have to be seen to be acting with integrity. It does't matter how honest your study or how objective your results, if people look at your study and see that it was funded by Monsanto and makes Monsanto look good, it looks like Monsanto paid for a study to make Monsanto look good and therefore it's biased and can be ignored.

This is life. If you want to be seen as having integrity, you have to act with integrity. And when people who were already distrusting of the way science is presented in the media are being told that they can't trust the media by authority figures, as ridiculous as those authority figures may be, eventually people stop listening until the furor abates.

Re: The rise and fall of scientific authority, and how to bring it back

#125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A dogmatic belief in anything is detrimental. It takes wisdom to understand this. Many followers of science lack this. Scientific method is a great tool - for the type of questions that it is designed to deal with - and a disaster waiting to happen if used for other areas of inquiry.

> Scientific method is a great tool - for the type of questions that it is designed to deal with - and a disaster waiting to happen if used for other areas of inquiry. What other areas of inquiry would that be?

Raising your children, talking to strangers, charity, you name it.

Re: The rise and fall of scientific authority, and how to bring it back

#126
post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> which facts to use? That's easy: the ones that are confirmed by experiments. Feyerabend was correct in calling science "anarchic" in that there is not one "scientific method" that will always point you at the right facts. Scientists do whatever works. But Feyerabend was wrong in thinking that, because of that, "all facts are alternative facts". It is possible to establish facts. You do that by experiments. It's jus…

It's easy if you're deciding between two masses for an electron. In that case you've already decided that some theory which describes electrons is the one for you--so in that context one is a fact that the other is just plain false. But it gets tricky in cases where you're deciding between facts whose enclosing theories are incompatible. Is gravity a force, or is it an acceleration? Each is a fact in its own theory--…

>Is gravity a force, or is it an acceleration? Each is a fact in its own theory--the more relevant question has to do with your situation: which theory is more useful?

I would call that a model, not a fact. And, as the saying goes, all models are wrong.

If it's impossible to do an experiment that shows one model to be better than another in a situation, then the choice is meaningless. Both are fine.

Re: The rise and fall of scientific authority, and how to bring it back

#127
A bigger problem is when and how to rely on "subject experts". My car mechanic knows far more about cars than I do, but he/she may also be biased into recommending unnecessary costly repairs to line her/her pocket.

Climate change skeptics often question the financial motivation of climatologists. It's certainly something to consider, but they rarely propose alternatives.

For example, a committee could be set up to investigate climate change science. The members would be already-retired volunteers from non-climate STEM disciplines who get the same stipend regardless of their findings, and are not permitted to receive money for books or speeches on the subject afterward. Their background would have to be mostly apolitical, meaning any political opinions in the public record are fleeting and incidental. The selection process would be similar to jury duty.

Re: The rise and fall of scientific authority, and how to bring it back

#128

The way in which public considers science today is much more analogous to the way the public considered religion during the time of Galileo. Think of the way people are castigated for not believing in scientific "truths". I see signs in peoples yard saying that "in this house, we believe science is real". As someone who has studied biochemistry for years, this kind of reverence for science is truly troubling. The one…

Comparing book burning, jailing, and being murdered to getting made fun of on internet dot com is just not compelling.

The whole "but science is just as bad as religion" argument rings quite hollow.

Re: The rise and fall of scientific authority, and how to bring it back

#129
post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> which facts to use? That's easy: the ones that are confirmed by experiments. Feyerabend was correct in calling science "anarchic" in that there is not one "scientific method" that will always point you at the right facts. Scientists do whatever works. But Feyerabend was wrong in thinking that, because of that, "all facts are alternative facts". It is possible to establish facts. You do that by experiments. It's jus…

It's easy if you're deciding between two masses for an electron. In that case you've already decided that some theory which describes electrons is the one for you--so in that context one is a fact that the other is just plain false. But it gets tricky in cases where you're deciding between facts whose enclosing theories are incompatible. Is gravity a force, or is it an acceleration? Each is a fact in its own theory--…

__MatrixMan__: I'm going to lose karma for having a meta-discussion on HN, but I'd like to spare you some misery...

In my experience, the HN crowd will heavily downvote comments that question the metaphysics assumed in other readers' posts. Without regard to the validity or applicability of such a comment, it's likely to cost you karma. I don't think this forum will entertain the kind of discussion you're trying to have, sadly.

Re: The rise and fall of scientific authority, and how to bring it back

#130

The way in which public considers science today is much more analogous to the way the public considered religion during the time of Galileo. Think of the way people are castigated for not believing in scientific "truths". I see signs in peoples yard saying that "in this house, we believe science is real". As someone who has studied biochemistry for years, this kind of reverence for science is truly troubling. The one…

Thank you for your insightful summary. I have heard very often lately that "the science is settled about X" and that this sentiment is exactly anti science is not observed. I agree, it troubles me. I don't advocate for the fallacy of futility that nothing of science can be built upon a potentially soon to be false idea, but it's equally frustrating that the opposite - an appeal to authority in the name of science? - is so widely held onto.
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