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The rise and fall of scientific authority, and how to bring it back

nature.com

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Re: The rise and fall of scientific authority, and how to bring it back

#11

Post by justintrtle »

charliesharding wrote: post #5

The way in which public considers science today is much more analogous to the way the public considered religion during the time of Galileo. Think of the way people are castigated for not believing in scientific "truths". I see signs in peoples yard saying that "in this house, we believe science is real". As someone who has studied biochemistry for years, this kind of reverence for science is truly troubling. The one…

I usually take statements similar to "in this house, we believe science is real" as conveying the message that the people believe in the scientific method, rational inquiry, evidence-based arguments, etc, rather than a set of specific scientific theories.

Re: The rise and fall of scientific authority, and how to bring it back

#12

Post by unknownkadath »

justintrtle wrote: post #11
charliesharding wrote: post #5

The way in which public considers science today is much more analogous to the way the public considered religion during the time of Galileo. Think of the way people are castigated for not believing in scientific "truths". I see signs in peoples yard saying that "in this house, we believe science is real". As someone who has studied biochemistry for years, this kind of reverence for science is truly troubling. The one…

I usually take statements similar to "in this house, we believe science is real" as conveying the message that the people believe in the scientific method, rational inquiry, evidence-based arguments, etc, rather than a set of specific scientific theories.

I mean, it's obviously a joke, right?

Also, the Simpsons did it. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6vxHkAQRQUQ

Re: The rise and fall of scientific authority, and how to bring it back

#13

Post by zazen »

unknownkadath wrote: post #6
lkrubner wrote: post #2

About this: " Hanging in the Louvre Museum in Paris is an imposing painting, The Preaching of St Paul at Ephesus. In this 1649 work by Eustache Le Sueur, the fiery apostle lifts his right hand as if scolding the audience, while clutching a book of scripture in his left. Among the rapt or fearful listeners are people busily throwing books into a fire. " Okay, but in the USA, over the last 60 years we've seen an astoni…

Are you saying that the problem here is that people aren't doing what they're told by authorities? Because I can confidently say that this is not an accurate reading of the fine article. Or, you know, reality.

I think it's valuable to ask some questions about the costs and unforseen second-order effects of throwing out all our traditional ideas of respect and status. It's pretty reductive to characterise this as saying people should "do what they're told". I can confidently say that's not an accurate reading of GP's comment.

Re: The rise and fall of scientific authority, and how to bring it back

#14

Post by AndrewDucker »

cossray wrote: post #9
savingthrow wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> 2. a parent spanks their child because their child misbehaved, and the parent is then investigated by the authorities They should be investigated if their parenting is so poor that they resort to physical violence against the child. It's absurd to suggest that hitting children is acceptable - as absurd as saying a boss can slap an employee, or that a husband can slap his spouse. You can be an authoritative parent w…

I honestly don't get this. When did spanking your child amount to 'physical violence'? We became too liberal with even the basics.

How is hitting a child not physical violence?

What definition of violence are you using which doesn't include hitting children?

Re: The rise and fall of scientific authority, and how to bring it back

#15

Post by devoply »

charliesharding wrote: post #5

The way in which public considers science today is much more analogous to the way the public considered religion during the time of Galileo. Think of the way people are castigated for not believing in scientific "truths". I see signs in peoples yard saying that "in this house, we believe science is real". As someone who has studied biochemistry for years, this kind of reverence for science is truly troubling. The one…

Episteme is always political once it gets societal acceptance and there is little difference between it and doxa. Techné is what actually does all the work and though you can find how to do it through episteme or doxa, it does not actually depend on them -- it does not matter what you believe as long as you know how to do something.

At the end of the day humans really only have techné, everything else is political... and it's also obvious that the political is generally dysfunctional scientifically -- i.e. inability to manage stability of the environment through science... and also scientifically managing the political is fascist or totalitarian. We get stuck with a set of choices that don't lead to good outcomes... maybe can never lead to good outcomes.

Re: The rise and fall of scientific authority, and how to bring it back

#16

Post by cameronh90 »

charliesharding wrote: post #5

The way in which public considers science today is much more analogous to the way the public considered religion during the time of Galileo. Think of the way people are castigated for not believing in scientific "truths". I see signs in peoples yard saying that "in this house, we believe science is real". As someone who has studied biochemistry for years, this kind of reverence for science is truly troubling. The one…

People may confuse believing in the scientific method for believing in the current scientific consensus, which as you point out is fluid.

However, for the average person, a dogmatic belief in the scientific method would be a huge step up over religion.

Re: The rise and fall of scientific authority, and how to bring it back

#17

Post by zby »

There is now a general crisis of authority. Just recently I have learned one peculiar theory (from https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7mmlmxamw_k&fbclid=IwAR3A42D...). Some moon landing photos (and maybe films) are really fake. There are people who believe that this is a proof that the whole moon landing was just staged - it is kind of natural to think like that, but a more probable theory is that it just proofs that a press officer did not have good material and just used what was available. Traditional media are kind of not very strict with this - I even have some personal experience about that, but people have much more romantic view on it and treat each photo or other material as fact and true. With the internet we have more to reconcile. I don't think this is bad - maybe media just needs to change. With some time we'll adapt.

It is similar case with science, maybe it is not that perfect as we used to view it. It is very good at where the incentives are well aligned - but they are not always 'adequate': https://equilibriabook.com/inadequacy-and-modesty/

Re: The rise and fall of scientific authority, and how to bring it back

#18

Post by sideshowb »

lkrubner wrote: post #2

About this: " Hanging in the Louvre Museum in Paris is an imposing painting, The Preaching of St Paul at Ephesus. In this 1649 work by Eustache Le Sueur, the fiery apostle lifts his right hand as if scolding the audience, while clutching a book of scripture in his left. Among the rapt or fearful listeners are people busily throwing books into a fire. " Okay, but in the USA, over the last 60 years we've seen an astoni…

None of your points 1,2,3 highlight a loss of authority so much as its transfer between different institutions: religion, state, teacher, parent.

Ok, maybe transferring authority to individuals as in (1) could be counted as a loss, but in a topic so personal that it would be ridiculous for somebody to claim authority over others in it anyway.

Re: The rise and fall of scientific authority, and how to bring it back

#19

Post by war1025 »

AndrewDucker wrote: post #14
cossray wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I honestly don't get this. When did spanking your child amount to 'physical violence'? We became too liberal with even the basics.

How is hitting a child not physical violence? What definition of violence are you using which doesn't include hitting children?

There is a huge difference between swatting someone to get their attention and hitting someone with enough force to cause injury.

Re: The rise and fall of scientific authority, and how to bring it back

#20

Post by weberc2 »

hackeraccount wrote: post #3

The more scientific authority is used for political aims - politics being "help my friends and hurt my enemies" the more it will lost it's authority. Politics corrupts what it touches. It's corruption itself so it looks for sources authority to accomplish it's goals. When it finds one of those sources it uses it and then turns it into itself.

Agreed, I feel like Heterdox Academy is one of the few collectives that actually care about solving the problem rather than blaming their outgroup. https://heterodoxacademy.org/the-problem/
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