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To build the cities of the future, we must get out of our cars

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Re: To build the cities of the future, we must get out of our cars

#151

Post by bpyne »

isostatic wrote: post #101
rfrey wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’m not sure 20-somethings are more civic minded. They voted in the last election at participation rates consistent with the last 40 years for that age group. Participation rates will probably increase as they age. Unfortunately priorities tend to change as people age too.

And they'll move out of the cities into suburbia in their 30s, as they always do. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-47529562 Over the past decade, about 550,000 more Britons left London than moved to it. This trend is not unique to London; it is seen in many big US cities, including New York, Miami, Chicago and Los Angeles. ... People arrive in their 20s looking for jobs, then retreat in their 30s. Although it seems more…

I think it depends on your idea of suburbia. We tend to have smaller cities surrounding our major city. These smaller cities have mixed use neighborhoods - commercial and residential - and lots of multi-family homes. I grew up in such a city in a multi-family home (locally, we knew them as tenements). An article appeared recently about the trend toward purchasing multi-families again due to their cost-effectiveness. So, I'm not certain of the 30-somthings move to the burbs trend yet.

Re: To build the cities of the future, we must get out of our cars

#152

Post by jimmaswell »

jakeinspace wrote: post #94
jimmaswell wrote: post #79

I'd hate walking everywhere, having to get tiny amounts of groceries every day instead of stocking up every 2 weeks, etc. Walking/standing all day at conventions feels like death and a half a mile trip to the fast food places around here turns from 2 minutes to 10 minutes if I walk, which I tried when someone from Europe said that's walking distance. Walking such distances just makes me constantly wish I was driving…

Sounds like my experience living in Houston. Of course I'd hate living here without a car, I did it for a few months and it's ridiculous. But compared to Montreal, Sydney, Toronto, or even Philadelphia (my points of reference), this is far and away the worst living experience. My commute to work is 15 minutes, which isn't too bad. It used to be a 10-minute bike ride or 20-minute walk, which was both healthier and mor…

I lived on a college campus for two years, which I think was like a microsm of walkable city. Food, academic clubs, classes, everything in walking distance of the dorm. The social aspect didn't work out for me that great, walking was tiresome. I didn't mind eating out all the time with the meal plan but groceries would've been healthier. I really enjoyed the setting with the nice streams/ponds/wildlife but that's where it deviates from the standard city experience unless you go to a park. It was great being able to sit in the grass and watch a great blue heron catch a fish after slowly staking out the area for a while.

In comparison to my experience walking 10 minutes to my farthest class some days, I much prefer driving for 10 or even 15 minutes. I just really prefer living in a setting like the house being surrounded by forest on at least 3 sides and having enjoyable countryside drives to stores. Can't speak for everyone but I'd only tolerate living in a city for a job ot something if I didn't have to do a lot of walking/NYC-style transit (I've used the MTA subways a few times and they are efficient, but too crowded/jerky/it's stressful running around between connections)

Re: To build the cities of the future, we must get out of our cars

#153

Post by ak217 »

naravara wrote: post #136
betandr wrote: post #71

We really do have to radically re-think our cities but the biggest issues aren't going to be practical but emotional. In London parents drive their children around in 4x4s, knowing that their vehicle causes the pollution that is affecting their own children's health. I'm not sure how you even start to get around that but to some extent you will never persuade everybody to reduce their damaging behaviour. You need to…

Kids is actually a tough case, especially when they're infants. You actually need to haul around a bunch of stuff to take a kid out and transit is rarely design around the needs of parents. Strollers are a pain to get into a bus or train, and often worsen crowding because they're so big. And it's just not practical to have to get car seats in and out of car-shares or cabs. Even in places with well considered transit…

Or live in an area (design and build areas) with good childcare options within walking distance. (Where "walking distance" is up to a mile away, not what Americans have gotten used to.)

Modern car seats and LATCH anchors actually make it fairly easy to bring a child car seat with you. I agree with you though, all this stuff is bulky and adds up to a lot of baggage. It makes sense to have a car for your child. But those cars create enormous problems, and car owners should be required to pay to fix them.

Re: To build the cities of the future, we must get out of our cars

#154

Post by hnal943 »

usaar333 wrote: post #111
educationdata wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No. Car is not just the "culture", car serves our need. If you are young without kids, it may not make much difference for you to ride a car, or take a bus, or a train, subway, etc. But if you have a family, it makes a huge pain without your own vehicle. If the city of future requires families to abandon their own vehicle, it is not the correct city of future. Just design a better one.

Where does the difficulty lie? I lived in SF fine with a toddler, taking public transit to local places.

1 kid who does not have his own schedule is relatively easy to manage. 5 kids who need to be in different places is more difficult.

Re: To build the cities of the future, we must get out of our cars

#155

Post by sandworm101 »

naravara wrote: post #136
betandr wrote: post #71

We really do have to radically re-think our cities but the biggest issues aren't going to be practical but emotional. In London parents drive their children around in 4x4s, knowing that their vehicle causes the pollution that is affecting their own children's health. I'm not sure how you even start to get around that but to some extent you will never persuade everybody to reduce their damaging behaviour. You need to…

Kids is actually a tough case, especially when they're infants. You actually need to haul around a bunch of stuff to take a kid out and transit is rarely design around the needs of parents. Strollers are a pain to get into a bus or train, and often worsen crowding because they're so big. And it's just not practical to have to get car seats in and out of car-shares or cabs. Even in places with well considered transit…

I'd extend this from "kids" to "dependents". Anyone trying to move a disabled person, or simply an elderly relative, will opt for private transportation. For me it is a question of reliability. If the train is cancelled, the bus is late, or the power goes out, the private car allows a degree of privacy and safety unmatched by public transport. You think changing a kids diaper on the train is bad, try it with a 150lb wheelchair-bound adult, one who may not have the mental capacity to understand why the train has stopped.

Re: To build the cities of the future, we must get out of our cars

#156

Post by burlesona »

naravara wrote: post #136
betandr wrote: post #71

We really do have to radically re-think our cities but the biggest issues aren't going to be practical but emotional. In London parents drive their children around in 4x4s, knowing that their vehicle causes the pollution that is affecting their own children's health. I'm not sure how you even start to get around that but to some extent you will never persuade everybody to reduce their damaging behaviour. You need to…

Kids is actually a tough case, especially when they're infants. You actually need to haul around a bunch of stuff to take a kid out and transit is rarely design around the needs of parents. Strollers are a pain to get into a bus or train, and often worsen crowding because they're so big. And it's just not practical to have to get car seats in and out of car-shares or cabs. Even in places with well considered transit…

Yes and no. I’ve raised three kids in a highly urban area with good transit. It’s a lot easier to walk than deal with car seats or strollers - though it’s slow. It’also easier to hop on the bus than load up the car, and the kids think it’s a fun adventure (seriously).

That said we do have a car and also use it a lot. I think it has a lot to do with the time sensitivity. If you want to go some place and it’s not a quick walk or a straight shot on transit, or if you are going to get groceries or other bulky stuff, then yeah the car is easier.

I think, though, the idea is if you design a place such that you don’t HAVE to have a car, then cars would be driven vastly less. For us that’s true, combined my family of five drives about 7000 miles per year, much of that on road trips from the Bay Area to Tahoe or Yosemite etc.

Re: To build the cities of the future, we must get out of our cars

#157

Post by rootusrootus »

jakeinspace wrote: post #94
jimmaswell wrote: post #79

I'd hate walking everywhere, having to get tiny amounts of groceries every day instead of stocking up every 2 weeks, etc. Walking/standing all day at conventions feels like death and a half a mile trip to the fast food places around here turns from 2 minutes to 10 minutes if I walk, which I tried when someone from Europe said that's walking distance. Walking such distances just makes me constantly wish I was driving…

Sounds like my experience living in Houston. Of course I'd hate living here without a car, I did it for a few months and it's ridiculous. But compared to Montreal, Sydney, Toronto, or even Philadelphia (my points of reference), this is far and away the worst living experience. My commute to work is 15 minutes, which isn't too bad. It used to be a 10-minute bike ride or 20-minute walk, which was both healthier and mor…

Different strokes for different folks. My suburban neighborhood is very socially active, we all know each other very well. I know their kids and vice versa, etc. What I find draining is all the noise when I go downtown, and being around so many strangers. I visit friends who live in condos downtown and they don't know their shared-wall neighbors as well as I know mine in the next house over. Everyone just retreats back to their personal cave once they're done dealing with the crowds.

Re: To build the cities of the future, we must get out of our cars

#158

Post by at-fates-hands »

isostatic wrote: post #101
rfrey wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’m not sure 20-somethings are more civic minded. They voted in the last election at participation rates consistent with the last 40 years for that age group. Participation rates will probably increase as they age. Unfortunately priorities tend to change as people age too.

And they'll move out of the cities into suburbia in their 30s, as they always do. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-47529562 Over the past decade, about 550,000 more Britons left London than moved to it. This trend is not unique to London; it is seen in many big US cities, including New York, Miami, Chicago and Los Angeles. ... People arrive in their 20s looking for jobs, then retreat in their 30s. Although it seems more…

I live in Minneapolis and I've seen this first hand. The funny thing is all of the downtown areas have been gentrified so much, instead of attracting the young 20's tech crowd, all the new condo's they've built are priced too high for their target market so now the young kids are simply moving out the suburbs right away.

I have a few younger nephews who graduated, were all about the music scene and after a year of looking for a decent apartment in the city, just gave up and bought a house in the second ring suburbs. They still work downtown and take the train in and get on near a park and ride, but the over gentrification has soured them to living in the city. It was funny to hear them tell me the city had no character anymore. It was all geared towards rich, trust fund kids or millionaire retirees.

Re: To build the cities of the future, we must get out of our cars

#160

Post by philwelch »

dkural wrote: post #89
betandr wrote: post #71

We really do have to radically re-think our cities but the biggest issues aren't going to be practical but emotional. In London parents drive their children around in 4x4s, knowing that their vehicle causes the pollution that is affecting their own children's health. I'm not sure how you even start to get around that but to some extent you will never persuade everybody to reduce their damaging behaviour. You need to…

The US is an extreme precisely due to these social and emotional reasons. It's shocking to me how this article fails to mention even once that a lot of post WWII suburbanization was due to white flight. The article states: "Millions of soldiers had come home from World War II to overcrowded, run-down cities; their new families needed a place to live." "Overcrowded, run-down": who all of a sudden "overcrowded" these c…

It’s not entirely clear that racial animus was the primary motivating factor. Once civil rights legislation was passed to stop housing discrimination, for instance, there was also black flight, when middle-class black families also moved to the suburbs.

It’s also not clear how one is supposed to reverse the effects of white flight; when middle-class whites move into a majority-nonwhite urban area, this is usually condemned as “gentrification”.

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