To build the cities of the future, we must get out of our cars • Hacker News Board

Re: To build the cities of the future, we must get out of our cars

#121

Post by electricslpnsld » Mon, Mar 18, 2019, 2:40 PM UTC

educationdata wrote: post #98

betandr wrote: post #71

We really do have to radically re-think our cities but the biggest issues aren't going to be practical but emotional. In London parents drive their children around in 4x4s, knowing that their vehicle causes the pollution that is affecting their own children's health. I'm not sure how you even start to get around that but to some extent you will never persuade everybody to reduce their damaging behaviour. You need to…

No. Car is not just the "culture", car serves our need. If you are young without kids, it may not make much difference for you to ride a car, or take a bus, or a train, subway, etc. But if you have a family, it makes a huge pain without your own vehicle. If the city of future requires families to abandon their own vehicle, it is not the correct city of future. Just design a better one.

I know families in NYC, Seattle, San Francisco, Oakland, Portland, and even Pittsburgh that do great car free! It is 100% doable, even in the US.

Re: To build the cities of the future, we must get out of our cars

#122

Post by [deleted] » Mon, Mar 18, 2019, 2:41 PM UTC

Tepix wrote: post #2

Not exactly rocket science. Many cities around the world have figured it out already. To me it seems that the US went to the other extreme and is only slowly turning around. I remember reading "Das neue Universum"² in the early 80s where they proposed large skyscrapers connected by tubes. No cars in sight. Oh and don't miss "Das Neue Universum Volume 84 (1967)": http://klausbuergle.de/buergle_verkehr1.htm - Click on…

[deleted]

Re: To build the cities of the future, we must get out of our cars

#123

Post by myself248 » Mon, Mar 18, 2019, 2:41 PM UTC

Funny how the loudest voices in these sorts of articles are always from places with temperate weather.

Re: To build the cities of the future, we must get out of our cars

#124

Post by username90 » Mon, Mar 18, 2019, 2:41 PM UTC

LoSboccacc wrote: post #80

older wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> According to OECD, the Copenhagen Metropolitan Region had close to 2.4 million inhabitants in 2005: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copenhagen_metropolitan_area

jesus are we really comparing this https://www.google.com/maps/place/San+Francisco+Bay+Area,+CA... and this https://www.google.com/maps/place/Copenhagen,+Denmark/@55.67... (should open at the same scale) as if they were comparable sprawl?

That is a dumb comparison, the problem we are discussing is that SF sprawl is less dense, of course it will appear huge on a map compared to denser cities.

SF metropolitan area is 4.8 million, about twice that of Copenhagen, but its sprawl looks way more than twice the size of Copenhagen sprawl.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/San_Francisco%E2%80%93Oakland%...

Re: To build the cities of the future, we must get out of our cars

#125

Post by benj111 » Mon, Mar 18, 2019, 2:41 PM UTC

lazyjones wrote: post #77

benj111 wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I didn't mention utopia. I did say "Its just cars are so entrenched in western cultures that its easy to overlook all the problems" Eg in a society dominated by cars, there are going to be people without cars that can't easily get to work. You didn't have that problem pre car, and no one complains about not being able to get to work easily because they don't have a helicopter. Cars create sprawl, and create a situati…

> in a society dominated by cars, there are going to be people without cars that can't easily get to work. You didn't have that problem pre car, "pre car" people would walk or ride horses/bicycles for hours to work. You can still do that now, or go faster by bus. > Cars create sprawl, Growing cities create sprawl. Necessary infrastructure for large cities (yes, you need fire trucks, garbage trucks, buses) as well as…

You'll find that commuting time has stayed fairly stable, we just travel further now.

Poor policies and the car create sprawl, not growth. Visit a city that developed pre car, no sprawl. New York was designed with massively wide streets, space for all the things you cite and didn't suffer from sprawl.

"parking space for convenient door-to-door transport slightly increases it." Slightly? I can't think of any shop with dedicated parking where the shop is bigger than the car park. Then think of all the houses with a driveway that you pass on the way to work. Each drive is an extra 8ft of frontage, that's an extra 8ft road to be built, and that you need to drive back and forth every day, and that's just the ones you can see.

Re: To build the cities of the future, we must get out of our cars

#126

Post by ozzyman700 » Mon, Mar 18, 2019, 2:42 PM UTC

jimmaswell wrote: post #79

I'd hate walking everywhere, having to get tiny amounts of groceries every day instead of stocking up every 2 weeks, etc. Walking/standing all day at conventions feels like death and a half a mile trip to the fast food places around here turns from 2 minutes to 10 minutes if I walk, which I tried when someone from Europe said that's walking distance. Walking such distances just makes me constantly wish I was driving…

On the flip side,

I love walking. I get groceries every week. It feels good to move my body, one day I will not be able to walk, either through death or disability. I would like to enjoy it while I can. When I walk places, I have less to worry about than when I am driving. There is significantly less chance of me accidentally murdering someone or being accidentally murdered.

A 2 minute drive feels so lazy to me.

I still enjoy going out to eat. I take the dog with me, on a leash, we both get moving. Grab the food, sit outside and enjoy the people watching.

It isn't easy if you don't walk a lot but eventually you feel a sense a pride in your walking gains. Feeling comfortable enough to go on long walks is a pretty basic human desire I feel. Even if exercise for weight loss is ineffective, it is not ineffective for mood change.

moderation in all things, including moderation.

Re: To build the cities of the future, we must get out of our cars

#127

Post by bluGill » Mon, Mar 18, 2019, 2:42 PM UTC

SupremeOverlord wrote: post #104

betandr wrote: post #71

We really do have to radically re-think our cities but the biggest issues aren't going to be practical but emotional. In London parents drive their children around in 4x4s, knowing that their vehicle causes the pollution that is affecting their own children's health. I'm not sure how you even start to get around that but to some extent you will never persuade everybody to reduce their damaging behaviour. You need to…

>We really do have to radically re-think our cities Yes we do, but the solution isn't less lanes, more public transit, and more bike paths. The solution is double to sextuple decker streets with matching parking. The solution is to make cities even more car friendly. Not everybody has the luxury of being physically fit enough to bike, or so time-loose to tolerate the inefficiencies of public transit!

Transport distances are measured in units of time. If you have a supersonic helicopter (such a thing doesn't exist and is probably impossible) the distance you can get in a given amount of time is much farther than a slow walk. However in both cases anything more than half an hour away is far away, and anything less is close. The distances are different, but the time is the same.

Sextuple streets are one solution to the problem. Another is not having as far a distance to travel for in the first place. Sextuple streets are extremely expensive - on the order of multi-billions per mile, but they would work. If you sextuple streets only support walkers but not cars they are much cheaper.

Re: To build the cities of the future, we must get out of our cars

#128

Post by usaar333 » Mon, Mar 18, 2019, 2:43 PM UTC

Sacho wrote: post #93

syshum wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Or you know people that value their time... For me to use Public Transport here would increase my commute time to work by order of magnitude, not to mention all the places I go weekly that is not on a public transit stop or would require multiple line hops and be many times more time consuming than if I just drove directly their in my own personal vehicle Public transport only works in area with High Population Densi…

I can't imagine how bad public transport must be to increase your commute time by an order of magnitude . I use public transport precisely because I value my time - it takes longer(around x1.5) than using a car, but that time is relaxing, can be used to read a book, listen to a podcast or just order your thoughts. Time spent in a car is stressful and requires your focus and attention. I'm not sure what kind of popula…

Crappy public transit is pretty common in the Bay Area.

Looking at my own home in the South Bay.

My 10 mile commute takes 15 minutes driving.

By public transit, it's walk five minutes to light rail, wait ten minutes, ride 50 minutes, transfer, wait ten minutes for the next bus, ride 15 minutes, walk 10 minutes.

Admittedly, 7x isn't quite an order of magnitude, but close enough.

I really don't see anyway to get busses economical down here unless you had much more traffic and higher density.

Re: To build the cities of the future, we must get out of our cars

#129

Post by adwww » Mon, Mar 18, 2019, 2:44 PM UTC

geocar wrote: post #57

adwww wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not happening though. My parents live in a beautiful part of the rural UK and have super-fast fibre to the premises internet, next day Amazon prime available, online food shopping from 4 or so supermarkets locally, etc. Basically everything you'd think you'd need to live away from the city, but still the area is depopulating rapidly. Younger people don't want a life of car dependancy and social isolation.

If you don't mind: Which part of the rural UK is this? I live in London and have pants for Internet (oversubscribed FTTC).

Cornwall. I think the EU funded the fibre - they've had it for years. Massive leave voting area, of course.

Re: To build the cities of the future, we must get out of our cars

#130

Post by ahje » Mon, Mar 18, 2019, 2:44 PM UTC

dukoid wrote: post #3

Tepix wrote: post #2

Not exactly rocket science. Many cities around the world have figured it out already. To me it seems that the US went to the other extreme and is only slowly turning around. I remember reading "Das neue Universum"² in the early 80s where they proposed large skyscrapers connected by tubes. No cars in sight. Oh and don't miss "Das Neue Universum Volume 84 (1967)": http://klausbuergle.de/buergle_verkehr1.htm - Click on…

Copenhagen is amazing in this regard. I'd recommend to just watch anything from Jan Gehl on Youtube if you're interested in this topic: https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=jan+gehl

Copenhagen traffic is a nightmare. Yes, the city is fairly bicycle friendly, but when it's faster to ride a bike 10 km to work instead of taking the subway* then there's a serious public transportation issue no matter how you put it.

* source: Living in Copenhagen for five years.