‘A toxic culture of overwork’: The graduate student mental health crisis • Hacker News Board

Re: ‘A toxic culture of overwork’: The graduate student mental health crisis

#221

Post by bhl » Sun, Mar 17, 2019, 10:01 PM UTC

jdietrich wrote: post #150

king_magic wrote: post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sorry, but candidly, this just reads as a bunch of lame excuses to continue a blatant cycle of abuse. Nothing in my professional 15 year career has come anywhere remotely close to the brutal, absurd reality of what I’ve seen graduate/PhD students go through. I think academia is nearing a kind of crisis akin to what the the Catholic Church is going through with rampant sex abuse. Diminishing, unimpressive returns in o…

There is an absurd oversupply of graduate students. Where there is an oversupply of labour, there are always abusive conditions. Academia can do all the soul-searching it wants, but the only meaningful solution is to rebalance supply and demand in academia; a very useful first step would be the provision of impartial and informed careers advice to high school and college graduates.

I don't think oversupply is the causal element in this case. Most of us know that to be a graduate student is to be in an extremely privileged position: it's the pressure from having that position that allows for abuse to be tolerated in that environment, and which normalizes the condition of being abused.

Edit: There's one line from the article that summarizes that point.

> Struggling at the very university he had held up as his dream and trapped between feeling that he could not continue with his Ph.D. program but that he also could not stop, Aguisanda’s thoughts began to spiral.

There's nothing talking about feelings of competition, or of being replaced.

Re: ‘A toxic culture of overwork’: The graduate student mental health crisis

#222

Post by Aeolun » Sun, Mar 17, 2019, 11:34 PM UTC

maze-le wrote: post #147

Aeolun wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, well, I guess that’s exactly why we are dissing academia. It’s ridiculously hard, the environment seems shitty, and the payoff is pretty much nonexistent. Why would anyone choose to do that instead of making boatloads of money in industry?

To be sure the exact same argument can be made for some startups too. Toxic work-culture for the sheer possibility of (often limited) rewards is not unique to academia -- its just more prevalent.

Of course, startups share most of the same traits.

But happily I’m working for a big multinational as a corporate drone, so I’m still in a position to say this ;)

Re: ‘A toxic culture of overwork’: The graduate student mental health crisis

#223

Post by zbentley » Mon, Mar 18, 2019, 1:14 AM UTC

mathgenius wrote: post #156

solotronics wrote: post #136

This is probably a stupid question but with the internet as a distribution method is there anything stopping someone from doing their research independently and publishing on their own? I am sure if you are doing quality work you would still be able to get a hold of a professor somewhere who would be interested in working with you. Of course this would not apply to situations where there is lab equipment involved but…

Not a stupid question at all. History is littered with examples of major scientific discoveries that went completely ignored because the discoverer was not associated with a prestigious institution, or some other reputable platform. > quality work So what? There is no shortage of quality work. If someone really wants to make it as an outsider (or even an insider) I would suggest spending some time on youtube watching…

> History is littered with examples of major scientific discoveries that went completely ignored

Citations please

Re: ‘A toxic culture of overwork’: The graduate student mental health crisis

#224

Post by kaitai » Mon, Mar 18, 2019, 1:55 AM UTC

mlthoughts2018 wrote: post #171

[deleted] wrote: post #167

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[deleted]

I’d also add to this that the quality standards in academia are generally piss poor, and my own type A perfectionism was a big reason why I did not follow in my advisor’s footsteps after finishing grad school: I saw that he rose to fame and rank by essentially creating low-quality demoware to be pleasing to the eye at conferences, and had zero ambition to work on results or problems important to the field. Professors…

I think this really depends on the field. In mathematics, my field, you can argue that the work of various people is undervalued, but it's a bit harder to argue that certain theorems are overvalued. However, the metrics of evaluation for theorems are quite different than those for... 'demoware'...?

Re: ‘A toxic culture of overwork’: The graduate student mental health crisis

#225

Post by musicale » Mon, Mar 18, 2019, 2:44 AM UTC

throwaway9870 wrote: post #197

king_magic wrote: post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sorry, but candidly, this just reads as a bunch of lame excuses to continue a blatant cycle of abuse. Nothing in my professional 15 year career has come anywhere remotely close to the brutal, absurd reality of what I’ve seen graduate/PhD students go through. I think academia is nearing a kind of crisis akin to what the the Catholic Church is going through with rampant sex abuse. Diminishing, unimpressive returns in o…

Where were you a graduate student? I was a Stanford EE grad student for 8 years in the 90s (first year was for masters). You know why I was there so long? I loved it. Students returned from industry and said same thing: don't be in a hurry to get out. I worked for a hard-ass prof, they did not let anything slip. The hours I worked were insane, on one project it was literally every waking hour for almost a year. It wa…

It's nice to hear that you had a great experience in grad school; sadly, the original article and the comments here indicate that your experience isn't universal today (at Stanford or elsewhere) by any means.

With regard to some of your specifics: good courses (and/or courses with industry luminaries) aren't the same as a supportive environment for completing your Ph.D. research and dissertation. We should probably question whether pressure-cookers really are the best environment for grad students.

Re: ‘A toxic culture of overwork’: The graduate student mental health crisis

#226

Post by musicale » Mon, Mar 18, 2019, 3:25 AM UTC

lewis500 wrote: post #120

I’m a professor. I have a few thoughts about this. First, the grad student/professor relationship is inherently asymmetrical, much more so than most employer/employee relationships. The degree has to last years or else you get nothing, and there are no hard and fast terms of the relationship like there is in many jobs. The professors recommendation might be the most important thing you get, and that is always running…

> the grad student/professor relationship is inherently asymmetrical, much more so than most employer/employee relationships... So many professors treat their students like robots

Power corrupts, apparently.

> Nothing about becoming a professor selects for kindness or empathy...

Quality of advising should be important, but of course that's not what they're selected for or rewarded for.

Re: ‘A toxic culture of overwork’: The graduate student mental health crisis

#227

Post by roel_v » Mon, Mar 18, 2019, 3:26 AM UTC

zwaps wrote: post #123

roel_v wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In Europe, a Masters is not 'graduate' level. A masters (in Europe) is just a continuation of a bachelors, and someone graduating with just a bachelors is basically someone who's only half finished their education. Consequently, the work load is nowhere near as bad as it is at the PhD level (although even there, it's not that bad either). Of course this very closely aligns the bachelors and masters level courses, mea…

There is in fact two things here. Most continental EU countries used to have a different system before the Bologna Bachelor/Master system. In the prior case, many countries simply did not have a Bachelor equivalent. In France, Spain, Netherlands and Germany, you'd by default do a Masters-level degree. As such, a Masters is more continued education - it does not imply a big cut from a "practical degree" toward researc…

Yes, this is an accurate elaboration on the situation. That doesn't take away from my point - that the stresses people are complaining about, in Anglo-Saxon 'graduate level studies', can be compared to continental masters programs. Some of it is similar in continental PhD programs, but the GP's anecdote of experiencing this in a continental masters program is simply misunderstanding the situation.

The fundamental problem here is that research is inherently uncertain, subjective and requires lots of creativity and independent thought (ideally - whether or not that actually happens is a different discussion). It's very different from undergraduate studies, which are usually 'do as you're told and you'll be fine'. Not everybody is suited for so much independence; in fact, often that do best in the rigid undergraduate system are those that are fundamentally wired to not do all that well in a more free form environment.

None (at least, very little) of that exists in continental masters programs. You just take your courses, do well on your exams, and you're good.

So that's what I meant as the fundamental difference between masters in continental vs Anglo-Saxon systems.

Re: ‘A toxic culture of overwork’: The graduate student mental health crisis

#228

Post by musicale » Mon, Mar 18, 2019, 3:28 AM UTC

lazyjeff wrote: post #195

lewis500 wrote: post #120

I’m a professor. I have a few thoughts about this. First, the grad student/professor relationship is inherently asymmetrical, much more so than most employer/employee relationships. The degree has to last years or else you get nothing, and there are no hard and fast terms of the relationship like there is in many jobs. The professors recommendation might be the most important thing you get, and that is always running…

I'm an assistant professor in computer science and have tried a few things to tune down the pressure in my lab. It's always hard to tell what works and what doesn't due to the very small N (N = number of phd students). I also run a small lab (N = 3 right now) so don't have the scaling and funding issues as larger labs. The thing that seems to be most successful is having every PhD student work with a couple of underg…

Nice ideas. Isolation is definitely an issue, and having them work with undergrads will also remind them that they're not at the absolute bottom of the social status hierarchy. They might get jealous of people who actually have a life though.

Re: ‘A toxic culture of overwork’: The graduate student mental health crisis

#229

Post by roel_v » Mon, Mar 18, 2019, 3:28 AM UTC

chrisseaton wrote: post #138

zwaps wrote: post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is in fact two things here. Most continental EU countries used to have a different system before the Bologna Bachelor/Master system. In the prior case, many countries simply did not have a Bachelor equivalent. In France, Spain, Netherlands and Germany, you'd by default do a Masters-level degree. As such, a Masters is more continued education - it does not imply a big cut from a "practical degree" toward researc…

> It is still the case that many jobs (like nursing) are not taught at a university, simply because there is no path to academic research. You can do research as a nurse. There are nurses with PhDs even.

Yes there are nurses with PhD's. There are janitors and Uber drivers with PhD's, so what? You probably mean that some people, with nursing degrees, have done PhD research on nursing. That still doesn't mean that nursing is something that is inherently meant to lead towards research.

Re: ‘A toxic culture of overwork’: The graduate student mental health crisis

#230

Post by roel_v » Mon, Mar 18, 2019, 3:32 AM UTC

fulafel wrote: post #94

roel_v wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In Europe, a Masters is not 'graduate' level. A masters (in Europe) is just a continuation of a bachelors, and someone graduating with just a bachelors is basically someone who's only half finished their education. Consequently, the work load is nowhere near as bad as it is at the PhD level (although even there, it's not that bad either). Of course this very closely aligns the bachelors and masters level courses, mea…

This may be changing, I think due to globalization many universities are now standardizing on the BSc as the default level to get off for most students - and simultaneously making the MSc more research-y.

Well yes, it is, and that would remove a lot of confusion. But for now, the majority of all continental masters are not 'research oriented' in the way an Anglo-Saxon masters always was. And most people hiring (which lags people graduating by, say, 10 years) will see a person who left university after a continental bachelors as someone who if not dropped out then at least didn't do the whole curriculum.