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Thinkpad X210

geoff.greer.fm

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Re: Thinkpad X210

#181

Post by papaf »

askafriend wrote: post #174
ekianjo wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> A standard form-factor means components would be re-usable between upgrades We don't even have to go that far. Just ensuring that laptops can be serviced by their own users would go a long way to reduce e-waste. i.e. not soldering RAM chips to the motherboard, making it feasible to remove every single part (not gluing the keyboard to the MB for example), etc... instead of pursuing an ever thinner laptop design, whi…

MacBook Pros not being user serviceable at every component level doesn’t mean they’re not environmentally friendly - not by a long shot. In fact, building a device like that might even shorten lifespan in a laptop form-factor, not to mention no one wants to carry around a heavy, clunky machine so it likely wouldn’t sell anyway. Here’s an example report that mostly has to do with the production and recycling aspects:…

Robust engineering, longevity, support, and resale markets do more for the environment than making components user-replaceable.

But if the parts were also user replaceable it would be better for the environment.

Re: Thinkpad X210

#182

Post by benbristow »

shasheene wrote: post #48

This is a good time to bring up the fact there was never an industry-wide standardization effort for laptops. A standard form-factor means components would be re-usable between upgrades: the laptop case, power supply, monitor, keyboard, touchpad could all be re-used without any additional effort. This improves repairability, is much better for the environment, and means higher-end components can be selected with the…

How are the laptop companies meant to force you to buy a new one every so often if you can just keep upgrading them?

Re: Thinkpad X210

#183

Post by askafriend »

papaf wrote: post #181
askafriend wrote: post #174

Earlier quoted context omitted.

MacBook Pros not being user serviceable at every component level doesn’t mean they’re not environmentally friendly - not by a long shot. In fact, building a device like that might even shorten lifespan in a laptop form-factor, not to mention no one wants to carry around a heavy, clunky machine so it likely wouldn’t sell anyway. Here’s an example report that mostly has to do with the production and recycling aspects:…

Robust engineering, longevity, support, and resale markets do more for the environment than making components user-replaceable. But if the parts were also user replaceable it would be better for the environment.

That requires significant trade-offs in durability, weight, and design.

Not to mention you don’t want the typical user (forget the HN audience) to replace the components themselves.

Most professional users are on corporate enterprise device plans and you don’t want employees or the IT department replacing components either. It’s far better and cheaper to get the employee back up and running with a new machine while the one in need of repair gets shipped off under enterprise warranty.

Re: Thinkpad X210

#184

Post by zenonu »

reaperducer wrote: post #163
shasheene wrote: post #48

This is a good time to bring up the fact there was never an industry-wide standardization effort for laptops. A standard form-factor means components would be re-usable between upgrades: the laptop case, power supply, monitor, keyboard, touchpad could all be re-used without any additional effort. This improves repairability, is much better for the environment, and means higher-end components can be selected with the…

For desktop PCs, the ATX standard means that the entirety of a high-end gaming PC upgrade often consists of just a new motherboard, CPU, RAM and GPU. And that's great, if you're into generic beige boxes. It's been years since I put together my own IBM compatible computers. But in the time since then, I haven't really seen any innovation in desktops. Yes, for a while the processor numbers ticked up, but then plateaued…

Strawman. Nobody claimed the ATX standard enabled innovation. It enabled the reduction of e-waste as OP indicated. Think of this the next time you trash your innovative phone or laptop because the non-user replaceable battery/ram/ssd/display/whatever failed.

Re: Thinkpad X210

#185

Post by jdietrich »

reaperducer wrote: post #163
shasheene wrote: post #48

This is a good time to bring up the fact there was never an industry-wide standardization effort for laptops. A standard form-factor means components would be re-usable between upgrades: the laptop case, power supply, monitor, keyboard, touchpad could all be re-used without any additional effort. This improves repairability, is much better for the environment, and means higher-end components can be selected with the…

For desktop PCs, the ATX standard means that the entirety of a high-end gaming PC upgrade often consists of just a new motherboard, CPU, RAM and GPU. And that's great, if you're into generic beige boxes. It's been years since I put together my own IBM compatible computers. But in the time since then, I haven't really seen any innovation in desktops. Yes, for a while the processor numbers ticked up, but then plateaued…

>All we've gotten from the desktop side in the last 20 years is more elaborate giant plastic enclosures, LED lights inside the computer, and...?

Improved efficiency and the demise of bulky storage devices has created a proliferation of small-form-factor designs. We have two proper standards in widespread use (mini-ITX and mini-STX) and an array of proprietary designs from Intel, Zotac and others. It's now possible to get a fast gaming machine the size of a Mac Mini, or a monstrously powerful workstation that'll fit in a shoulder bag.

https://www.zotac.com/us/product/mini_pcs/magnus-en1070k

https://www.sfflab.com/products/dan_a4-sfx

Re: Thinkpad X210

#186

Post by alfredxing »

craftyguy wrote: post #156
jasonvorhe wrote: post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't get why people don't just use Slack on Chrome. Everything people rant about when using the Electron-app doesn't happen in Chrome.

Electron is chromium...

Electron is built with Chromium. It's usually behind by a few versions (though the team is really focusing now on getting things up to date), and there are differences and additions.

Re: Thinkpad X210

#187

Post by eggy »

lorenzk wrote: post #175
eggy wrote: post #160

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I still haven't watched the show. Is it good?

By far the best onscreen „hacking“ I know of. He does use Linux Mint as daily driver though...

Definitely going to binge watch soon. I have thought of using Redox and writing my own tools. An obsucre OS, but still running across interent/ethernet...oh, wait, spawn a drone node on a Windows machine using MOSREF/Wasp Lisp in Rust or Shen (shout out to doublec/sdunlop!) [1,2]

[1] https://bluishcoder.co.nz/2015/02/19/spawning-windows-comman... [2] https://github.com/doublec/shen-wasp/releases/tag/v0.8

Re: Thinkpad X210

#188

Post by elif »

saagarjha wrote: post #59
shasheene wrote: post #48

This is a good time to bring up the fact there was never an industry-wide standardization effort for laptops. A standard form-factor means components would be re-usable between upgrades: the laptop case, power supply, monitor, keyboard, touchpad could all be re-used without any additional effort. This improves repairability, is much better for the environment, and means higher-end components can be selected with the…

Nobody is going to do this, because good components are a competitive advantage. I can’t see any good manufacturer wanting their good {trackpad, keyboard, case} either being put in a computer that undercuts them or being forced to dumb down their computer to fit the “lowest common denominator”.

Incorrect. That happens with desktop PC's.

The reason it hasnt happened in laptops is you would have to compromise size and form

Re: Thinkpad X210

#189

Post by hatsix »

reaperducer wrote: post #163
shasheene wrote: post #48

This is a good time to bring up the fact there was never an industry-wide standardization effort for laptops. A standard form-factor means components would be re-usable between upgrades: the laptop case, power supply, monitor, keyboard, touchpad could all be re-used without any additional effort. This improves repairability, is much better for the environment, and means higher-end components can be selected with the…

For desktop PCs, the ATX standard means that the entirety of a high-end gaming PC upgrade often consists of just a new motherboard, CPU, RAM and GPU. And that's great, if you're into generic beige boxes. It's been years since I put together my own IBM compatible computers. But in the time since then, I haven't really seen any innovation in desktops. Yes, for a while the processor numbers ticked up, but then plateaued…

Nearly all of the tech you have in your laptop was developed, tested, and refined on desktops. PCI based SSD were in desktops before NVMe was a thing. Vapor cooled processors were on budget gaming PCs 10 years ago. Even the MacBook trackpad was based on a desktop keyboard produced by a company called fingerworks. High DPI monitors came first to desktop. High refresh rate came first to desktop. Fingerprint reader? Had one on my secure computer 15 years ago. Face unlock a couple years after that.

Desktop is still the primary place for innovation. Laptops use technology that was introduced and pioneered on desktop, then refined until it could fit in Mobile/Laptop. Don't get me wrong, there's probably more work in getting the tech into Mobile than developing it in the first place... But the genesis of the ideas happen on desktop.

Desktop has the opposite mix of freedom and constraints as mobile. Standard internals, but freedom of space. There are dozens of heat-sink manufacturers for PC... Dozens of small teams focused on one problem. There's some variation between chipsets, but nothing that requires major design changes. These teams can afford to innovate... And customers can afford to try new solutions. If the heat-sink doesn't perform, you're out 5% of the total cost. But there's no similar way to try things out for laptops.

For example... Should a laptop combine all of its thermal dissipation into one single connected system or have isolated heat management? It completely depends on usage and thermal sensitivities of the components... It was desktop water-cooling that gave engineers the ability to test cooling GPU and CPU with the same thermal system to determine where to draw the line.

Re: Thinkpad X210

#190

Post by ako »

shasheene wrote: post #48

This is a good time to bring up the fact there was never an industry-wide standardization effort for laptops. A standard form-factor means components would be re-usable between upgrades: the laptop case, power supply, monitor, keyboard, touchpad could all be re-used without any additional effort. This improves repairability, is much better for the environment, and means higher-end components can be selected with the…

Because size and weight is an important distinctive feature for laptops. Customers pay more for smaller, lighter laptops. Using standardized components and chassis would mean a big competitive disadvantage.
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