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‘A toxic culture of overwork’: The graduate student mental health crisis

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Re: ‘A toxic culture of overwork’: The graduate student mental health crisis

#121
>> “I know lots of people who come out of undergrad and work 60 hours a week,” said James, referring to his friends in finance and other industries, “but they’re making so much more.”

So that makes it better? I'd have thought that, if academic culture is seen as exhausting and exploitative, a 60-hour work week would not be seen as anything different, regardless of the salary.

If a higher salary makes enough of a difference- well then, is that what this article is about? Giving graduate students more money for their work?

Re: ‘A toxic culture of overwork’: The graduate student mental health crisis

#122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A Master’s is as much graduate level in Europe as in the US. If you go in expecting to do the same level of work you did in your Bachelor’s you might scrape a pass but that’s as well as you’re going to do. This is not to deny there’s an enormous difference between doing research and doing coursework but an M.Phil. student is doing research much as a Ph.D. student is. They’re getting a Master’s as much as someone doin…

Europe is very diverse. As a university professor in Spain, I can say your parent comment is an accurate description of Spanish Master's degrees. In fact, the Spanish system used to be based on 5-year and even 6-year degrees. In the last university reform (triggered by the Bologna process), most universities just split their existing degrees into a 4-year Bachelor's and a 1 or 2-year Master's and called it a day. So…

Ok, but the 6 years in Spain were 4 years for a Bachelor and 2 years for a Master right?

So I think that the new Bologna system must be 3 + 1.5 or something like that. At least that's how I've seen it implemented in some countries.

To me the 4 year Bachelor's was always a complete degree. It's the 3 year that's arguably not.

Re: ‘A toxic culture of overwork’: The graduate student mental health crisis

#123
post #48
post #17

After 5 years of work, I finally decided to take the jump and live the dream of earning a Masters degree from a prestitious university in The Netherlands. Being a non-EU citizen I had shell euro 15000/year but it still seemed cheaper than US counterparts. Couple months into the semester I realized the pressure kicking in my program. The planned 40 hour load required atleast 80 hours of work. I could sense stress and…

In Europe, a Masters is not 'graduate' level. A masters (in Europe) is just a continuation of a bachelors, and someone graduating with just a bachelors is basically someone who's only half finished their education. Consequently, the work load is nowhere near as bad as it is at the PhD level (although even there, it's not that bad either). Of course this very closely aligns the bachelors and masters level courses, mea…

There is in fact two things here.

Most continental EU countries used to have a different system before the Bologna Bachelor/Master system. In the prior case, many countries simply did not have a Bachelor equivalent. In France, Spain, Netherlands and Germany, you'd by default do a Masters-level degree. As such, a Masters is more continued education - it does not imply a big cut from a "practical degree" toward research. Therefore, your assessment is correct.

But it is only half correct, because the other side is that in Europe, research universities and their degrees are meant to be for academic purposes. Most countries, especially German speaking countries, have entirely different systems (Vocational, applied universities) for students studying for a job.

In contrast to English-speaking countries, a vocational career is very much a proper thing to do and need not imply "failure" in any way. In fact, the strength of the German economy (and why firms moved back there from China), is the extremely high qualification of the median "technician".

It is still the case that many jobs (like nursing) are not taught at a university, simply because there is no path to academic research. On the other hand, the vocational education is not in any way inferior to a college degree in English-speaking countries.

A university was meant to prepare for academic research. That is why despite the first point, degrees in continental Europe were often more focused on research than on succeeding in a job.

An indicator of this can be seen by the lower rate of college graduates. This is often understood as a negative indicator internationally, but it is not really true. Yes, less people do college degrees, but college degrees are not the only possibility of qualification.

From my own experience, and I think many would agree, I think that the very high quality vocational education (and the fact that it is officially recognized) is equal if not sometimes better to prepare for a job. Especially the dual system, where you learn while working in a company for half the time, and go to a school the other half.

There is no doubt that this system is one of the reasons why the engineering sector in continential Europe has been doing much better than in the UK.

So in closing yes, the Master is a continuation degree. But, from the start, university is much more research focused. These things, of course, are changing now.

Re: ‘A toxic culture of overwork’: The graduate student mental health crisis

#124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not a single thing about China is attractive to me. Not how you work, not your politics, not your view of what's important in life. We have nothing to learn from you and I hope we don't become more similar than we are now.

I agree with the things you list but wow there's a lot to learn from the Chinese. There's a NYT bestseller called "the subtle art of not giving a fuck". The Chinese, by and large, don't need this book because they already carefully allocate their fucks, and it's a natural thing for them to do (especially in the south, by my impression) More anecdotally, I find Chinese engineers among the most joyful and laid back peo…

How can you be laid back while also doing 996 ?

Re: ‘A toxic culture of overwork’: The graduate student mental health crisis

#125

I’m a professor. I have a few thoughts about this. First, the grad student/professor relationship is inherently asymmetrical, much more so than most employer/employee relationships. The degree has to last years or else you get nothing, and there are no hard and fast terms of the relationship like there is in many jobs. The professors recommendation might be the most important thing you get, and that is always running…

Sorry, but candidly, this just reads as a bunch of lame excuses to continue a blatant cycle of abuse.

Nothing in my professional 15 year career has come anywhere remotely close to the brutal, absurd reality of what I’ve seen graduate/PhD students go through.

I think academia is nearing a kind of crisis akin to what the the Catholic Church is going through with rampant sex abuse. Diminishing, unimpressive returns in output (aside from a few bright areas), and dark secrets continually being covered up/brushed aside.

Academia needs to do some serious soul searching.

Re: ‘A toxic culture of overwork’: The graduate student mental health crisis

#126
post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Considering almost all the world changing knowledge our society has has come from academia, I really can't agree with you. Even in CS, almost all of what I learned in grad school was directly applicable to real problems. The issue is that the bar in industry is so low that we're more worried about getting people to do even basic things than getting them to use state of the art technology.

A lot of that world changing knowledge is a result of academia’s partnerships with industry. Consider the early radio lab at Stanford. Academia as we know it is fairly recent. Many of the fundamental results in the sciences were discovered by people who weren’t academics but had a chill day job. For example, Newton.

Newton's biggest discoveries were back at his home while his University was closed due to the plague. I wouldn't say that thinking at the family estate to wait out the plague is a chill day job. In that era, many scientists were wealthy aristocrats, e.g. Antoine Lavoisier.

Re: ‘A toxic culture of overwork’: The graduate student mental health crisis

#127
Another point that contributes to academia as "perfect storm", in addition to the points mentioned before, is that in many countries the chances of having a career are slim for the median student.

Not everyone can gain a top position in any field. But in most industries, there are plenty of positions where you can make meaningful contributions. We know that most humans need to feel useful for mental health.

In academia, there are increasingly few viable career paths where you are not required to beat out everyone. The further you progress, the harder it becomes to switch to industry. Implied in this is that the further you go, the more risk you must be willing to take, and the more stress you are under.

In my country, the system for selecting professors is not very meritocratic. Older professors frequently would not have an ounce of success if they were required to prove themselves in the current situation.

In addition, there are very few positions to do research below a professor level, and these positions are precarious and do not offer a lot of options for meaningful contribution.

This places extreme stress on graduate students - in addition to everything being said here. As you progress in your PhD, you are either at the very top, or you have to fear that your career will go nowhere. Remember, this is a group of people that already selected on wanting to do research, seeing research as their goal in life.

This is a systemic pressure of extreme magnitude. If you fail, which is statistically likely, then you will be in a (comparatively) bad position to go after other careers. In addition, you are most likely a person who does not care primarily about money and wealth. Thus, options for a meaningful life decline as risk increases.

The success or failure is determined by many factors our of your control. Like your advisor's behavior, how the network is utilized, if you are lucky to work on a hot subject, if your contribution is recognized and so forth. The locus of control is far out of your reach, more so than in other industries. And if you fail, all the options you set for yourself in your life vanish.

It doesn't take a lot of thought to realize this has an extreme effect on the psyche of graduate students. It's more than publish or perish. It's publish or face the void.

Re: ‘A toxic culture of overwork’: The graduate student mental health crisis

#128

>> “I know lots of people who come out of undergrad and work 60 hours a week,” said James, referring to his friends in finance and other industries, “but they’re making so much more.” So that makes it better? I'd have thought that, if academic culture is seen as exhausting and exploitative, a 60-hour work week would not be seen as anything different, regardless of the salary. If a higher salary makes enough of a diff…

The salary comment does seem out of place compared to all the issues about the advisor/student relationship. But, as an independent axis, money can reduce stress. The easiest example is a shorter commute and more reliable transportation.

Re: ‘A toxic culture of overwork’: The graduate student mental health crisis

#129

I’m a professor. I have a few thoughts about this. First, the grad student/professor relationship is inherently asymmetrical, much more so than most employer/employee relationships. The degree has to last years or else you get nothing, and there are no hard and fast terms of the relationship like there is in many jobs. The professors recommendation might be the most important thing you get, and that is always running…

>> Third, the professors themselves are under extreme pressure. Everybody knows this.

I dont' think everyone appreciates this, actually. But, if it's bad for your mental health to go through the pressure of a PhD for three or four years- how much worse can it be to keep this up for the next 40 years or so, as a professor? And now you are under even more pressure because you're responsible for your students' careers also.

This is my biggest doubt about continuing in academia after I finish my PhD (if I do). I realised that my advisor is always on a tight budget - on everything: funding, time, attention, interest... Do I really want to put myself in that position?

Re: ‘A toxic culture of overwork’: The graduate student mental health crisis

#130

I’m a professor. I have a few thoughts about this. First, the grad student/professor relationship is inherently asymmetrical, much more so than most employer/employee relationships. The degree has to last years or else you get nothing, and there are no hard and fast terms of the relationship like there is in many jobs. The professors recommendation might be the most important thing you get, and that is always running…

Sorry, but candidly, this just reads as a bunch of lame excuses to continue a blatant cycle of abuse. Nothing in my professional 15 year career has come anywhere remotely close to the brutal, absurd reality of what I’ve seen graduate/PhD students go through. I think academia is nearing a kind of crisis akin to what the the Catholic Church is going through with rampant sex abuse. Diminishing, unimpressive returns in o…

Well, my experience in the industry was that I changed five jobs in six years because in order for my work to be valued as highly as it was really worth, I had to sell it to someone new every year.

What is really brutal in academia is the competition to get your research published and appreciated (by being cited and reused by others). This doesn't happen automatically. The pressure to find something useful to contribute cannot be compared to the pressures in the industry where you basically just have to keep your boss happy if you want to stay in the money. It's a bit like an artistic career, really. You're constantly trying to hit the top 10.

And remember that academics are always required to do something genuinely new, not just "Uber for ice cream, but with AI".

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