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‘A toxic culture of overwork’: The graduate student mental health crisis

stanforddaily.com

111–120 of 238 posts

Re: ‘A toxic culture of overwork’: The graduate student mental health crisis

#111
post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

First of all, maybe in Berlin. There are a few reasons for people living in the streets. Drugs is a big one, especially in Berlin. You won‘t find that in most of Germany. Fact is, most people who are legally in Germany for >3 months are legible for Hartz 4: a free apartment, free heating and a few hundred Euro. And free healthcare.

> Fact is, most people who are legally in Germany for >3 months are legible for Hartz 4: a free apartment, free heating and a few hundred Euro. And free healthcare. Free apartment for a foreigner living in the country only over 3 months?! Dude, people on employment contract with over average income, staying in the country for years are having difficulties to find anything for rent in any major city, buying is out of…

approx. 500.000 Berliners receive Hartz 4

Re: ‘A toxic culture of overwork’: The graduate student mental health crisis

#112
post #34
post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree. But when you are talking about Stanford you are really talking about the best of the best. Their performance curves don't match the rest of the population to start with. For example, I am just watching highlights of the Indian Wells Tennis Tourney thats going on, and a 38 year old Roger Federer has managed to get to the finals. And in every interview with the rest of the competition, they all say he is just…

Especially for creative work, work time doesn't correlate with output. Being a top physicist/mathematician/whatever is pretty unrelated with "working harder." It's related with having a somehow "better" connected brain. You can't work your way into being very smart.

You need both. From Hamming's You and your research:

``Knowledge and productivity are like compound interest.'' Given two people of approximately the same ability and one person who works ten percent more than the other, the latter will more than twice outproduce the former. The more you know, the more you learn; the more you learn, the more you can do; the more you can do, the more the opportunity - it is very much like compound interest. I don't want to give you a rate, but it is a very high rate. Given two people with exactly the same ability, the one person who manages day in and day out to get in one more hour of thinking will be tremendously more productive over a lifetime. I took Bode's remark to heart; I spent a good deal more of my time for some years trying to work a bit harder and I found, in fact, I could get more work done. I don't like to say it in front of my wife, but I did sort of neglect her sometimes; I needed to study. You have to neglect things if you intend to get what you want done. There's no question about this.

Re: ‘A toxic culture of overwork’: The graduate student mental health crisis

#113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I suspect its the content of the game rather than its difficulty. That is, academia is at-best dimly related to practical results that have a direct effect on people's lives.

Academia called, they want their quantum theory back. Particularly the parts that enabled transistor-based electronics.

[deleted]

Re: ‘A toxic culture of overwork’: The graduate student mental health crisis

#114
post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I suspect its the content of the game rather than its difficulty. That is, academia is at-best dimly related to practical results that have a direct effect on people's lives.

Considering almost all the world changing knowledge our society has has come from academia, I really can't agree with you. Even in CS, almost all of what I learned in grad school was directly applicable to real problems. The issue is that the bar in industry is so low that we're more worried about getting people to do even basic things than getting them to use state of the art technology.

A lot of that world changing knowledge is a result of academia’s partnerships with industry. Consider the early radio lab at Stanford.

Academia as we know it is fairly recent. Many of the fundamental results in the sciences were discovered by people who weren’t academics but had a chill day job. For example, Newton.

Re: ‘A toxic culture of overwork’: The graduate student mental health crisis

#115
post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If there's one thing living and working in Europe (Germany) has taught me is that all countries are more or less the same. It's just how well the culture manages to mask the "unattractive" traits we love to criticize in places like China (or America, as of late), and the PR/propaganda campaign they run to convince everyone they're the best place on the planet. China is a prime example of subpar image/PR management. T…

Sounds like Berlin, which is totally different than pretty much every other place in Germany :-) FREE healthcare means that everyone is covered, even if unemployed or working for low wages. The more you earn, the more you pay (capped at ~400€). Your family is insured for no extra payment. You obviously don‘t fit the system because you believe you should pay less (single, young, healthy) but that‘s exactly not what it…

FREE healthcare means that everyone is covered...

Sounds like universal healthcare, not free healthcare.

Re: ‘A toxic culture of overwork’: The graduate student mental health crisis

#116
post #17

After 5 years of work, I finally decided to take the jump and live the dream of earning a Masters degree from a prestitious university in The Netherlands. Being a non-EU citizen I had shell euro 15000/year but it still seemed cheaper than US counterparts. Couple months into the semester I realized the pressure kicking in my program. The planned 40 hour load required atleast 80 hours of work. I could sense stress and…

> The only preparation I was getting was the ability to absorb stress; and I was sucking at it. That's interesting, in my second semester (Physics) a professor said to us in his introduction lecture that one of the biggest things you learn during studies is stress resilience. There's definitely a lot of truth to that. Although back at the time I didn't realize it but looking back it was the case. During studies and a…

> That's interesting, in my second semester (Physics) a professor said to us in his introduction lecture that one of the biggest things you learn during studies is stress resilience.

Yet this skill is never taught. So in actual fact what he’s saying is “studies filter out the people who can’t learn stress resilience by themselves”

Re: ‘A toxic culture of overwork’: The graduate student mental health crisis

#117
>> “It felt as if I was telling him he didn’t respect me, and he essentially said, you’re right,” he recalled.

I'm a PhD research student on my second year.

It's unfortunate to frame this in terms of respect for the student's person, rather than his work, which is most likely what has lost the advisor's respect.

I've come to my PhD after six years in the industry. Because of this I see my research as a work assignment: my advisor has handed me a project that I need to see through. The success of the project is not guaranteed and it's up to me to achieve it. As in the industry, where I earned the respect of my colleagues by getting things done, so in academia, I can only earn the respect of my advisor and other academics by delivering strong results and publishing in a reputable venue. If I can do that, then noone will have any reason to not respect "me" (actually, my work).

The important thing to understand is that your advisor's enthusiasm and interst in your work cannot be taken for granted. And so is the enthusiasm and interest of other researchers in your field. Unless you are delivering genuinely interesting and exciting work, you cannot expect sustained enthusiasm and support to continue that work.

Another thing to keep in mind about academics is that they are always on a tight budget: of funding, attention, time, energy. If you take a piece out of that budget you have to put something back in, or you will inevitably cause doubt and disapointment.

It's a professional relation, studying for a PhD: you give something to be given something, do something so that others might do something for you.

Re: ‘A toxic culture of overwork’: The graduate student mental health crisis

#119
post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We are talking about Stanford here. I don't know, but to me it feels like someone getting into the NBA or trying out for the Olympics having a problem with hard work. If you can't do the work why take up a spot in one of the best schools in the land? Isn't that a valid question? Especially in the hypercompetitive world we live in?

From what I understand, successful professional athletes tend to train very hard during dedicated practice hours (something like 30 hours per week), but then have rich lives outside their training, get enough sleep every night, etc. Trying to do more than 30 hours of intense creative work per week yields diminishing returns, while leading to worse and worse negative health effects as you increase hours. People workin…

There are anecdotes all over the place, but the nugget of truth is that the human body can only exert so much effort, which means elite athletes have fairly limited training hours. But that still leaves plenty of time for things like film study. And far from getting merely "enough sleep every night", most athletes have to get even more sleep, which takes time away from the rest of life. It's still a very focused existence--but then, you don't receive exceptional results from less-than-exceptional input.

Re: ‘A toxic culture of overwork’: The graduate student mental health crisis

#120
I’m a professor. I have a few thoughts about this.

First, the grad student/professor relationship is inherently asymmetrical, much more so than most employer/employee relationships. The degree has to last years or else you get nothing, and there are no hard and fast terms of the relationship like there is in many jobs. The professors recommendation might be the most important thing you get, and that is always running in the background. So many professors treat their students like robots.

Second, professors are essentially super students. We became professors because we have extreme standards. Your engineering manager became a manager because he was an engineer and got promoted, but having a professor as a boss is like if a famous open source developer was your boss. Nothing about becoming a professor selects for kindness or empathy, unlike a manager at an ordinary company who might be trained and evaluated—-especially in a large company—-on the happiness of his workers. So a lot of professors have essentially obsessive attitudes and no empathy. Add to this the fact that many students are escaping countries where they have little future. For example, the past few years, the Iranian economic crisis has caused a surge in Iranian applicants.

Third, the professors themselves are under extreme pressure. Everybody knows this.

Fourth, the work a professor outsources to students tends to be the stupidest and worst tasks, because the students usually aren’t good enough to make big contributions. This is depressing for the students: they’re smart people who signed up to work with a famous professor on work they cared about, but their day to day is to do things anyone could do for almost no money.

Finally, the professors are under pressure to create these huge labs. We don’t make profits, so things like funding and number of PhD students are taken to be metrics for evaluating. The US news ranking absurdly includes phd’s per tenure track professor as one of their metrics. So a lot of people are accepted who really shouldn’t be there, and the research is designed to have tons of busy work.

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