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‘A toxic culture of overwork’: The graduate student mental health crisis

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Re: ‘A toxic culture of overwork’: The graduate student mental health crisis

#91

Post by Al-Khwarizmi »

barry-cotter wrote: post #52
roel_v wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In Europe, a Masters is not 'graduate' level. A masters (in Europe) is just a continuation of a bachelors, and someone graduating with just a bachelors is basically someone who's only half finished their education. Consequently, the work load is nowhere near as bad as it is at the PhD level (although even there, it's not that bad either). Of course this very closely aligns the bachelors and masters level courses, mea…

A Master’s is as much graduate level in Europe as in the US. If you go in expecting to do the same level of work you did in your Bachelor’s you might scrape a pass but that’s as well as you’re going to do. This is not to deny there’s an enormous difference between doing research and doing coursework but an M.Phil. student is doing research much as a Ph.D. student is. They’re getting a Master’s as much as someone doin…

Europe is very diverse. As a university professor in Spain, I can say your parent comment is an accurate description of Spanish Master's degrees.

In fact, the Spanish system used to be based on 5-year and even 6-year degrees. In the last university reform (triggered by the Bologna process), most universities just split their existing degrees into a 4-year Bachelor's and a 1 or 2-year Master's and called it a day. So the Master's is seen just as a natural continuation of the Bachelor's and those who go to the job market with a Bachelor's as impatient people who are working with an incomplete degree.

Now universities are also offering new Master's which aren't based on the traditional degrees, and those sometimes feel more "graduate", but they're not the majority at the moment.

Re: ‘A toxic culture of overwork’: The graduate student mental health crisis

#92

Post by Aeolun »

edhu2017 wrote: post #13

Disclaimer: Our field is extremely competitive (deep learning) and other labs may have better working styles depending on their lab size and member composition. My lab's workload on average is 8 - 12 hours a day for 6-7 days a week, ramping up even more closer to deadlines. That being said, a lot of this time (50% or more) is for thinking and discussing. This schedule, while hard, seems to be effective for publishing…

But how do you know that 6-8 hours 4-5 days a week wouldn’t be just as effective? I assume you don’t really have anything to compare it to.

Re: ‘A toxic culture of overwork’: The graduate student mental health crisis

#93

Post by fiblye »

icelancer wrote: post #37
ivalm wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I mean, pick your favorite financial metric, they are behind.

This is trivially false. Here's a relevant one: Rate of positive change of GDP (absolute or per capita) over the last 20 years, by country.

They're behind Ireland in that aspect.

And frankly, countries like Switzerland and Norway can't even really grow their GDP. They're essentially maxed out since most people have a standard of life beyond even upper class people in most countries. China is at a point where $2000 of growth is more significant than $12000 would be for Switzerland or Norway.

Re: ‘A toxic culture of overwork’: The graduate student mental health crisis

#94

Post by fulafel »

roel_v wrote: post #48
omk wrote: post #17

After 5 years of work, I finally decided to take the jump and live the dream of earning a Masters degree from a prestitious university in The Netherlands. Being a non-EU citizen I had shell euro 15000/year but it still seemed cheaper than US counterparts. Couple months into the semester I realized the pressure kicking in my program. The planned 40 hour load required atleast 80 hours of work. I could sense stress and…

In Europe, a Masters is not 'graduate' level. A masters (in Europe) is just a continuation of a bachelors, and someone graduating with just a bachelors is basically someone who's only half finished their education. Consequently, the work load is nowhere near as bad as it is at the PhD level (although even there, it's not that bad either). Of course this very closely aligns the bachelors and masters level courses, mea…

This may be changing, I think due to globalization many universities are now standardizing on the BSc as the default level to get off for most students - and simultaneously making the MSc more research-y.

Re: ‘A toxic culture of overwork’: The graduate student mental health crisis

#95

Post by Aeolun »

_hardwaregeek wrote: post #61

Y'know, occasionally I see off hand remarks from tech or start-up people dissing academia, not understanding that academia is probably one of the hardest career paths in the world (and thus surprisingly similar to start-ups). You can't take a break (publish or perish), you need a lot of qualifications to even dream about getting tenure (top 5 grad schools or bust), and you're competing against ridiculously smart and…

No, well, I guess that’s exactly why we are dissing academia. It’s ridiculously hard, the environment seems shitty, and the payoff is pretty much nonexistent.

Why would anyone choose to do that instead of making boatloads of money in industry?

Re: ‘A toxic culture of overwork’: The graduate student mental health crisis

#96

Post by Aeolun »

_cs2017_ wrote: post #44
luckydata wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not a single thing about China is attractive to me. Not how you work, not your politics, not your view of what's important in life. We have nothing to learn from you and I hope we don't become more similar than we are now.

> We have nothing to learn from you I don't think you can use the word "we" to make your claim. Regardless if you meant to speak for the Americans or people from some other country, you don't represent their opinion.

No, no. Don’t worry. This is a royal ‘we’.

Re: ‘A toxic culture of overwork’: The graduate student mental health crisis

#97

Post by mjfl »

Aeolun wrote: post #95
_hardwaregeek wrote: post #61

Y'know, occasionally I see off hand remarks from tech or start-up people dissing academia, not understanding that academia is probably one of the hardest career paths in the world (and thus surprisingly similar to start-ups). You can't take a break (publish or perish), you need a lot of qualifications to even dream about getting tenure (top 5 grad schools or bust), and you're competing against ridiculously smart and…

No, well, I guess that’s exactly why we are dissing academia. It’s ridiculously hard, the environment seems shitty, and the payoff is pretty much nonexistent. Why would anyone choose to do that instead of making boatloads of money in industry?

Because you love it :)

Re: ‘A toxic culture of overwork’: The graduate student mental health crisis

#98

Post by Al-Khwarizmi »

mjburgess wrote: post #84
d0mine wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> dimly related to practical results that have a direct effect on people's lives. Look at how monkeys live, look at us. Think who can do science.

And likewise, think who can do business. You might find the latter has a lot more to do with our success as a species than "science" as such.

Monkeys can do business.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/7797776.stm

The difference is that they do business with bananas, primitive tools, sex, etc. While we do business with phones, planes, houses... i.e. things that exist thanks to science.

Re: ‘A toxic culture of overwork’: The graduate student mental health crisis

#99

Post by Al-Khwarizmi »

luckydata wrote: post #11
kodz4 wrote: post #2

Meanwhile in China we have 9-9-6. The US needs to wake up to whether it wants to stay in the game.

Not a single thing about China is attractive to me. Not how you work, not your politics, not your view of what's important in life. We have nothing to learn from you and I hope we don't become more similar than we are now.

The food is amazing. And I also admire how they are getting things done with e.g. the transition to electric cars while in most of the Western world we drag our feet. I suspect it might be the same with self-driving cars when they are a reality.

In the "view of what's important in life" I don't think there is a lot of difference between Chinese and Western culture.

Regarding 9-9-6, yeah, I also hope we don't copy that from them.

Re: ‘A toxic culture of overwork’: The graduate student mental health crisis

#100

Post by Aeolun »

expertentipp wrote: post #89
JanSt wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

First of all, maybe in Berlin. There are a few reasons for people living in the streets. Drugs is a big one, especially in Berlin. You won‘t find that in most of Germany. Fact is, most people who are legally in Germany for >3 months are legible for Hartz 4: a free apartment, free heating and a few hundred Euro. And free healthcare.

> Fact is, most people who are legally in Germany for >3 months are legible for Hartz 4: a free apartment, free heating and a few hundred Euro. And free healthcare. Free apartment for a foreigner living in the country only over 3 months?! Dude, people on employment contract with over average income, staying in the country for years are having difficulties to find anything for rent in any major city, buying is out of…

> in any major city

Well, there’s your problem.

If you are unemployed, there is hardly any reason to stay in a big city.

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