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‘A toxic culture of overwork’: The graduate student mental health crisis

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Re: ‘A toxic culture of overwork’: The graduate student mental health crisis

#71

Post by expertentipp »

JanSt wrote: post #70
digitalixus wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If there's one thing living and working in Europe (Germany) has taught me is that all countries are more or less the same. It's just how well the culture manages to mask the "unattractive" traits we love to criticize in places like China (or America, as of late), and the PR/propaganda campaign they run to convince everyone they're the best place on the planet. China is a prime example of subpar image/PR management. T…

Sounds like Berlin, which is totally different than pretty much every other place in Germany :-) FREE healthcare means that everyone is covered, even if unemployed or working for low wages. The more you earn, the more you pay (capped at ~400€). Your family is insured for no extra payment. You obviously don‘t fit the system because you believe you should pay less (single, young, healthy) but that‘s exactly not what it…

> poor, old, unhealthy people, those who suffer in life are protected

> Cancer won‘t bankrupt your family, you won‘t end on the street.

> That‘s free healthcare - dignity!

I guess the middle age male homeless sitting and sleeping all over the cities and transport venues damage your vision slightly. Don't even try the narrative "it's eastern Europeans, it's their own fault".

Re: ‘A toxic culture of overwork’: The graduate student mental health crisis

#72

Post by bigbangchina »

digitalixus wrote: post #41
luckydata wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not a single thing about China is attractive to me. Not how you work, not your politics, not your view of what's important in life. We have nothing to learn from you and I hope we don't become more similar than we are now.

If there's one thing living and working in Europe (Germany) has taught me is that all countries are more or less the same. It's just how well the culture manages to mask the "unattractive" traits we love to criticize in places like China (or America, as of late), and the PR/propaganda campaign they run to convince everyone they're the best place on the planet. China is a prime example of subpar image/PR management. T…

I am from India, I was working as a Principal engineer in SV, after that in Germany and finally I am here in China.

Your analysis is correct, I enjoy working in China the most. Work hours are not bad but after work hours are lot more interesting.

There is lots of hustle and bustle, and the co-workers actually do invite you to their family events.

I am lot more happy in China and play to have a family here.

Re: ‘A toxic culture of overwork’: The graduate student mental health crisis

#73

Post by bigbangchina »

omk wrote: post #17

After 5 years of work, I finally decided to take the jump and live the dream of earning a Masters degree from a prestitious university in The Netherlands. Being a non-EU citizen I had shell euro 15000/year but it still seemed cheaper than US counterparts. Couple months into the semester I realized the pressure kicking in my program. The planned 40 hour load required atleast 80 hours of work. I could sense stress and…

No one forcing them to work hard tho.

I think some people have insecurities and other mental health concern which make them work more than other Ordinary people.

And just because some people are working lot more than others, they'll discover something new or have success purely due to brute force and not actually due to some latent talent

Re: ‘A toxic culture of overwork’: The graduate student mental health crisis

#74

Post by tensor »

mjburgess wrote: post #64
_hardwaregeek wrote: post #61

Y'know, occasionally I see off hand remarks from tech or start-up people dissing academia, not understanding that academia is probably one of the hardest career paths in the world (and thus surprisingly similar to start-ups). You can't take a break (publish or perish), you need a lot of qualifications to even dream about getting tenure (top 5 grad schools or bust), and you're competing against ridiculously smart and…

I suspect its the content of the game rather than its difficulty. That is, academia is at-best dimly related to practical results that have a direct effect on people's lives.

Considering almost all the world changing knowledge our society has has come from academia, I really can't agree with you.

Even in CS, almost all of what I learned in grad school was directly applicable to real problems. The issue is that the bar in industry is so low that we're more worried about getting people to do even basic things than getting them to use state of the art technology.

Re: ‘A toxic culture of overwork’: The graduate student mental health crisis

#76

Post by unithrowaway »

barry-cotter wrote: post #52
roel_v wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In Europe, a Masters is not 'graduate' level. A masters (in Europe) is just a continuation of a bachelors, and someone graduating with just a bachelors is basically someone who's only half finished their education. Consequently, the work load is nowhere near as bad as it is at the PhD level (although even there, it's not that bad either). Of course this very closely aligns the bachelors and masters level courses, mea…

A Master’s is as much graduate level in Europe as in the US. If you go in expecting to do the same level of work you did in your Bachelor’s you might scrape a pass but that’s as well as you’re going to do. This is not to deny there’s an enormous difference between doing research and doing coursework but an M.Phil. student is doing research much as a Ph.D. student is. They’re getting a Master’s as much as someone doin…

Personal anecdote: I did relatively poorly for my Bachelor's, finishing with a GPA of about 2.7. I attended most lectures anywhere from 70 to 95% of the time. I was treating University like school; I went to the lectures just to listen. The week before the exam, I scrolled through the slides once, making sure I understand the material. However, understanding versus being able to fill in the answers to pre-selected types of assignments within barely more the time than it takes to thoroughly read all the questions are two very different and mostly independent skills.

During my Master's, I can count on one hand the number of times I went to a lecture hall. Instead I spent my time relaxing at home. Every once-in-a-while, I registered for a bunch of exams, which would then force me to go through the lecture slides at home and practice solving some old exams. I graduated the Master's with 4.0 GPA.

Re: ‘A toxic culture of overwork’: The graduate student mental health crisis

#77

Post by barry-cotter »

ivalm wrote: post #34
kodz4 wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree. But when you are talking about Stanford you are really talking about the best of the best. Their performance curves don't match the rest of the population to start with. For example, I am just watching highlights of the Indian Wells Tennis Tourney thats going on, and a 38 year old Roger Federer has managed to get to the finals. And in every interview with the rest of the competition, they all say he is just…

Especially for creative work, work time doesn't correlate with output. Being a top physicist/mathematician/whatever is pretty unrelated with "working harder." It's related with having a somehow "better" connected brain. You can't work your way into being very smart.

This isn’t true and there’s no evidence of it being true. Total productivity doesn’t drop as a function of hours worked until somewhere between 40 and 60 hours a week[1]. We know that creativity is more or less constant in individuals so those who produce more do more good work[2].

[1]http://ftp.iza.org/dp8129.pdf

The Productivity of Working Hours, John Pencavel

[2]https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/abb5/02a8b01b50790a44cf5438...

Creative productivity: A predictive and explanatory model of career trajectories and landmarks.

Dean Keith Simonton

For a popular audience

https://jamesclear.com/equal-odds

Re: ‘A toxic culture of overwork’: The graduate student mental health crisis

#78

Post by jorgec »

I was studying at the university, and my dad was fired, so I "decided" to work (during the day) and study at night and I found a different new world. I wasn't the only guy that did that; it was hard but not impossible. I also worked on summer in one of the worst schedules: 12 hours per day x 7 days per week. Am I mad?. Not really, I really enjoyed working and studying, I earned experience (and money), and when I graduated, I already had a job, expertise, and money (and contacts).

Now, if you say that it's hard to study when the study is your only concern..

¯\_ツ_/¯

We can't raise as a good adult if we don't give our best shot.

Re: ‘A toxic culture of overwork’: The graduate student mental health crisis

#79

Post by jorgec »

mac01021 wrote: post #75
kodz4 wrote: post #2

Meanwhile in China we have 9-9-6. The US needs to wake up to whether it wants to stay in the game.

What does "9-9-6" refer to?

schedule from 9am to 9pm, 6 days per week.

However, this schedule doesn't work.

Re: ‘A toxic culture of overwork’: The graduate student mental health crisis

#80

Post by denhamparry »

I’m in my 30’s now and found out that I suffer from depression. It was a lightbulb moment realising that the feeling I’d become accustomed to for the previous 15 years was actually something.

For me, I never fitted in with anyone at University and felt alone. Going into work I started with small companies, providing tech for sales roles. The sales way of ‘high pressure’ was transferred to how projects should be managed.

Today I try and help out by building a community via running a meet-up. The people I have around me today and the confidence I have to be able to be depressed and get out of it with the help of others around me keeps me going.

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