Live data from Hacker News

Descartes was wrong: ‘a person is a person through other persons’ (2017)

aeon.co

11–20 of 52 posts

Re: Descartes was wrong: ‘a person is a person through other persons’ (2017)

#11
post #4

This profoundly misunderstands Descartes. Descartes is about proving existence through doubt. If you start doubting everything around you, what is left is your own mind that must exist since it is thinking and doubting. It has nothing to do with being a 'person' as a social construct, or about who I am.

Interstingly, this "I think therefor I am" has been taken as the most barebone possible way to demonstrate what exist and what does not. However, each word of the sentence makes an assumption that it never tries to demonstrate:

- "I": assumes individuality and that the mind is a local phenomenon.

- "think": assumes cognition and that it's a process of the mind.

- "therefor": assumes causality.

- "am": assumes there is such a thing as existence at our level.

Those are postulates, not demonstrated facts. It's perfectly ok to have those, as long as you declare them as such. However, when you study Descartes, teachers never do so. It's disappointing when the whole point is to teach people to "doubt everything".

There are other philosophies that doubt those postulates. Some assume we are not individuals, but focal points on a collective conscientiousness. Some believe thinking is actually not a creative process, but merely the act of receiving information from another source. Some think we live in a deterministic world, and causality is an illusion our mind uses to make sense of things. Some will say we are not, existence is the symptom of a greater activity like a shadow.

In the end, even something as simple as "cogito ergo sum" can be dissembled to the extreme and debated.

Which is why I enjoy philosophy less and less. It's a never ending source of questions, with very little useful answers for day to day life. It's not practical at all, and my most philosophical friends are also among the most unhappy.

Even antiquity philosophers, despite dispensing practical advises on how to live your life, fall into the trap on not giving any applicable way of reaching their standards.

It's like saying "quit" to a smoker or "eat less" to an obese. True. Practical. Not gonna help.

Re: Descartes was wrong: ‘a person is a person through other persons’ (2017)

#14
post #12

This is environmental determinism and it is an old concept. Obviously we live with others and other can have impact on us but it is still up to us if are impacted by them or we are self contained human beings which decide for themselves.

That we are self contained human beings isn't obvious to me. All of my opinions, thoughts, and actions are a reflection of my surrounding social group.

Re: Descartes was wrong: ‘a person is a person through other persons’ (2017)

#16
post #9
post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, again that is not the same thing. It's about 'personhood' only in the sense of existence. To quote Wikipedia: "While other knowledge could be a figment of imagination, deception, or mistake, Descartes asserted that the very act of doubting one's own existence served—at minimum—as proof of the reality of one's own mind; there must be a thinking entity—in this case the self—for there to be a thought."

The thinking entity that is proven to exist is the person. To descartes that thinking entity is the very core and fundamental unit of the person. The body and the interactions with others is irrelevant to that core.

I'm not sure that is right. From the proposition 's runs' I can validly infer that s exists. This does not commit me to the view that running is fundamental to s's personhood.

Similarly, the claim that if s thinks then s exists does not entail that a further claim that thinking is central to s's personhood.

Re: Descartes was wrong: ‘a person is a person through other persons’ (2017)

#17
post #4

This profoundly misunderstands Descartes. Descartes is about proving existence through doubt. If you start doubting everything around you, what is left is your own mind that must exist since it is thinking and doubting. It has nothing to do with being a 'person' as a social construct, or about who I am.

Interstingly, this "I think therefor I am" has been taken as the most barebone possible way to demonstrate what exist and what does not. However, each word of the sentence makes an assumption that it never tries to demonstrate: - "I": assumes individuality and that the mind is a local phenomenon. - "think": assumes cognition and that it's a process of the mind. - "therefor": assumes causality. - "am": assumes there i…

>Descartes, teachers never do so.

When I was taught Descartes, the flimsiness of the whole 'cogito' thing was really emphasised. I actually don't think I've ever heard of anybody in the philosophy world who took the binding between personal existence and thought as any kind of raw fact, at least not in the terms Descartes proposed.

Most of the treatments I (vaguely) remember were about the interesting observation, implicit in the Meditations, that there's something unusual about existential predicates.

I think if you stop thinking of philosophy as a body of answers, and more as a body of in-depth examinations of questions, then it gets good again. It's a bit like maths - nobody would ever suggest that the concept of a Heesh number is an answer to a particular kind of question. It's more an interesting way to talk about tiling.

Re: Descartes was wrong: ‘a person is a person through other persons’ (2017)

#20
post #12

This is environmental determinism and it is an old concept. Obviously we live with others and other can have impact on us but it is still up to us if are impacted by them or we are self contained human beings which decide for themselves.

That we are self contained human beings isn't obvious to me. All of my opinions, thoughts, and actions are a reflection of my surrounding social group.

So if all your friends starts killing would you start as well? I believe you have free will, your imagination, a brain and you can assess for yourself what actions you eant to perform.
Post reply on HN