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25M Brits would struggle in a cashless society

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Re: 25M Brits would struggle in a cashless society

#121

Post by theamk »

Nextgrid wrote: post #117
crooked-v wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Secure and robust > value stored on-card These two things don't go together.

It could work as a sort of cryptocurrency. Cryptocurrencies are functionally equivalent to "stored value" and yet they remain secure. Plus, since we're talking about a government-issued currency, a lot of the drawbacks of a typical cryptocurrency wouldn't apply (the government can be considered the central source of trust, so no need for a proof of work system or anything).

The cryptocurrencies only remain as secure as your PC (or hardware wallet) is. And those things are only secure because they have the right software/firmware installed on them. And the reason you know you have the right firmware is because you trust the manufactures to put the right one in, and trust store/postal service not to tamper with it.

Once you are in the domain of "Anonymous $1 cards which people swap with each other", you no longer have this option. The obvious thing is to have corresponding entry in online database, but then anyone who wants to verify the card value will have to access this database -- so your privacy disappears.

I am not saying that it's impossible -- people are smart, something can likely be figured out -- but it is not obvious to me those cards can be made harder to forge than cash.

Re: 25M Brits would struggle in a cashless society

#122

Post by theamk »

MisterTea wrote: post #48
Meekro wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Speaking just to crime, there are still about 10 bank robberies per day in the US[1], plus many crimes against individuals where the goal is to obtain cash. I would think that a cashless society would have much less of this? [1] https://www.fbi.gov/file-repository/bank-crime-statistics-20...

Cash is just a bartering medium. You can barter using stolen valuables. Cashless won't stop poverty and desperation. People will adapt and we'll see a shift in crimes.

But much fewer places have valuables compared to cash. Most of the food and service places have nothing worth stealing -- but often carry lots of cash. (or at least used to, some of them since moved to credit-card only [1])

There are other crime-reducing forces as well -- smart car keys which are harder to steal, activation lock on the phones which prevent reselling, and so on.

I do wonder how crime would adopt to future cashless society. I think most of the mugging and pickpocketing will go away. Will this mean increase of burglary? Or will the criminals start doing something else?

[1] https://www.cloverfoodlab.com/2015/04/23/credit-trucks/

Re: 25M Brits would struggle in a cashless society

#123

Post by theamk »

_red wrote: post #45
cascom wrote: post #2

The implications of a cashless society on privacy are terrifying

The monetary implications are even scarier. The real reason they are pushing for "cashless society" is so they can impose negative interest rates. Since you won't have the option to withdraw your funds into cashier, you bank balance will be debited monthly as a privilege for giving the bank money. Its their next hairbrained scheme to try and shore up their ponzi-scheme economy.

I don't see how this will work, unless every country does this, or your currency becomes non-convertible.

And even then, you would still be able to buy stocks, expensive jewelry, gold, houses and so on.

Re: 25M Brits would struggle in a cashless society

#124

Post by frosted-flakes »

lawn wrote: post #77
frosted-flakes wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm curious; how do you decide who pays for what? If you're splitting the bills for everything anyway, and since you've dedicated your lives to each other (presumably, if you're married), it feels like a pointless exercise to keep separate finances.

You trust each other to list what common items they've bought. We have separate bank accounts and credit cards and we split the bills most things, like groceries. But we don't look into what personal purchases we make, for example me buying Lego. It's pretty easy to decide if we should pay together or not. At least for us.

I agree that each spouse should have some of their "own" money to spend as they see fit, but to me, it makes sense for all income to go into a single pot. Shared expenses come from the pot, while a certain amount of spending money is set aside for each spouse each week/month/whatever. Whether that money is put into separate accounts or is just two lines in the budget doesn't really matter. (YNAB would be good for something like this, and this is actually a setup the company founder suggests).

That way, you never have to deal with splitting shared expenses, there's no worrying about who's earning more, and financial decisions are by default made together, but you can still buy your LEGO with your own money.

Re: 25M Brits would struggle in a cashless society

#126

Post by fauigerzigerk »

username223 wrote: post #108
fauigerzigerk wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I totally agree, but I wonder if physical cash is really the only way get there. I fear that trying to keep a cash infrastructure in place will turn out to be a futile effort because it is so expensive. Long before cash is completely gone I bet that almost everyone who needs it will be priced out of actually using it. Also, cash has the downside of not being usable online. The problem is that I know of no government…

I doubt you can ever eliminate "cash," but only make it worse. For example, prisoners can't have cash, so they use cigarettes or cans of mackerel as a medium of exchange and store of value. They're heavier and bulkier than cash, but they work the same. I think any barter system will inevitably develop a "cash," because sellers want more potential buyers, and buyers want more places to shop.

>I doubt you can ever eliminate "cash," but only make it worse.

Isn't it pretty bad that you can't use cash to buy online? Cash is becoming far less useful than it once used to be because more and more things can only be bought online or cost a lot more if you don't.

Re: 25M Brits would struggle in a cashless society

#127

Post by TomMarius »

theonemind wrote: post #57
the8472 wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not being a resident means you are the resident of a different country, so the assumption is that you have a bank account there. And being illegal or a suspected terror financer would already put you in an underclass anyway.

The assumption that everyone has a country causes problems for people who actually don't: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Statelessness

Stateless persons can be legal residents.

Re: 25M Brits would struggle in a cashless society

#128

Post by Broken_Hippo »

mcguire wrote: post #103
2038AD wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

FWIW In the US something called Zelle launched a couple of years ago https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zelle_(payment_service)

Previously, it was free and easy to transfer money between accounts at the same institution (BoA, if it matters) (modulo the $1000/day limit). Post Zelle? I dunno. The last time I just wrote a check.

That's not good enough, though. I shouldn't have to have the same bank as my spouse. NOt all banks offer both partners value, nor should either give up long-standing accounts for this. I don't mind a small fee, but it can't make think twice sending rent money or food money to the spouse or him doing the same to me.

A direct transfer from online banking might take overnight or over the weekend, but there is an app that lets folks pay each other that is low-cost and speedy (or pay for a soda from a machine).

Re: 25M Brits would struggle in a cashless society

#129

Post by dTal »

sametmax wrote: post #47

Another problem is that no society is perfect. And even if it were, it won't stay that way. There is a need for a small grey area in any system to stay sane, where people can workaround the limitations of said system. Yes, it will be abused, and also used for nefarious purposes. But it's better than the alternative. You need people to sometimes be able to do things the state doesn't approve. You need children to be a…

Barack Obama put it nicely I think:

"We have to assume that if a system is perfect, then it’s static. And part of what makes us who we are, and part of what makes us alive, is that we’re dynamic and we’re surprised. One of the challenges that we’ll have to think about is, where and when is it appropriate for us to have things work exactly the way they’re supposed to, without surprises?"

Re: 25M Brits would struggle in a cashless society

#130

Post by lozenge »

crazygringo wrote: post #80

I would love to see a cashless society because carrying around dirty bills and heavy coins is just a nuisance, and adds real overhead for stores as well... ... BUT , for privacy and the unbanked, I suspect this necessarily needs to go along with credit-card-compatible "cash cards" that would have to be: 1) Anonymous (e.g. buy a card for $1 from any drugstore, swap them with friends, buy in bulk and give away, whateve…

Large denominations get removed from circulation because they are used to enable crime.
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