‘A toxic culture of overwork’: The graduate student mental health crisis • Hacker News Board

Re: ‘A toxic culture of overwork’: The graduate student mental health crisis

#21

Post by Bombthecat » Sun, Mar 17, 2019, 7:30 AM UTC

asutekku wrote: post #16

edhu2017 wrote: post #13

Disclaimer: Our field is extremely competitive (deep learning) and other labs may have better working styles depending on their lab size and member composition. My lab's workload on average is 8 - 12 hours a day for 6-7 days a week, ramping up even more closer to deadlines. That being said, a lot of this time (50% or more) is for thinking and discussing. This schedule, while hard, seems to be effective for publishing…

If half of the time is thinking, why do you need to be on the spot? Seems really counterproductive to me.

He probably means planning meetings.

Never understood what the purpose is to fill half the day with meetings. Beside the illusion of productivity.

Re: ‘A toxic culture of overwork’: The graduate student mental health crisis

#22

Post by icelancer » Sun, Mar 17, 2019, 7:30 AM UTC

fiblye wrote: post #6

kodz4 wrote: post #2

Meanwhile in China we have 9-9-6. The US needs to wake up to whether it wants to stay in the game.

Hours worked is inversely correlated with GDP per capita. China needs to step down if they want to try to be competitive.

This implies that "GDP per capita" is something to optimize for. My guess is that China doesn't see it that way.

Re: ‘A toxic culture of overwork’: The graduate student mental health crisis

#23

Post by icelancer » Sun, Mar 17, 2019, 7:31 AM UTC

seattle_spring wrote: post #9

kodz4 wrote: post #2

Meanwhile in China we have 9-9-6. The US needs to wake up to whether it wants to stay in the game.

Meanwhile in China you also have one of the highest suicide rates per capita in the world.

That's... not true by official statistics.

http://worldpopulationreview.com/countries/suicide-rate-by-c...

Japan and the United States are both quite a bit higher. Is it likely that China is fudging the numbers and it's higher than what they report? Yes. But neither Japan nor the US come off as looking good here.

Re: ‘A toxic culture of overwork’: The graduate student mental health crisis

#24

Post by kodz4 » Sun, Mar 17, 2019, 7:32 AM UTC

jacobolus wrote: post #14

kodz4 wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We are talking about Stanford here. I don't know, but to me it feels like someone getting into the NBA or trying out for the Olympics having a problem with hard work. If you can't do the work why take up a spot in one of the best schools in the land? Isn't that a valid question? Especially in the hypercompetitive world we live in?

From what I understand, successful professional athletes tend to train very hard during dedicated practice hours (something like 30 hours per week), but then have rich lives outside their training, get enough sleep every night, etc. Trying to do more than 30 hours of intense creative work per week yields diminishing returns, while leading to worse and worse negative health effects as you increase hours. People workin…

I agree. But when you are talking about Stanford you are really talking about the best of the best. Their performance curves don't match the rest of the population to start with.

For example, I am just watching highlights of the Indian Wells Tennis Tourney thats going on, and a 38 year old Roger Federer has managed to get to the finals. And in every interview with the rest of the competition, they all say he is just working harder than the rest of the field.

Re: ‘A toxic culture of overwork’: The graduate student mental health crisis

#25

Post by [deleted] » Sun, Mar 17, 2019, 7:34 AM UTC

Bombthecat wrote: post #21

asutekku wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If half of the time is thinking, why do you need to be on the spot? Seems really counterproductive to me.

He probably means planning meetings. Never understood what the purpose is to fill half the day with meetings. Beside the illusion of productivity.

[deleted]

Re: ‘A toxic culture of overwork’: The graduate student mental health crisis

#26

Post by jacobolus » Sun, Mar 17, 2019, 7:35 AM UTC

icelancer wrote: post #20

jacobolus wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From what I understand, successful professional athletes tend to train very hard during dedicated practice hours (something like 30 hours per week), but then have rich lives outside their training, get enough sleep every night, etc. Trying to do more than 30 hours of intense creative work per week yields diminishing returns, while leading to worse and worse negative health effects as you increase hours. People workin…

> From what I understand, successful professional athletes tend to train very hard during dedicated practice hours (something like 30 hours per week), but then have rich lives outside their training, get enough sleep every night, etc. I train hundreds of professional athletes. The majority of them do not have rich lives outside of their training. Most of them have very unbalanced lives that center around their sport,…

Thanks for the reply. How much do the athletes you train practice?

Do you think the exclusive focus helps their performance at their sport?

Do you think competition selects for people with mental health problems, or causes mental health problems?

Is there a noticeable difference between athletes who burn out in a few years vs. the ones who have long careers?

Re: ‘A toxic culture of overwork’: The graduate student mental health crisis

#27

Post by edhu2017 » Sun, Mar 17, 2019, 7:36 AM UTC

asutekku wrote: post #16

edhu2017 wrote: post #13

Disclaimer: Our field is extremely competitive (deep learning) and other labs may have better working styles depending on their lab size and member composition. My lab's workload on average is 8 - 12 hours a day for 6-7 days a week, ramping up even more closer to deadlines. That being said, a lot of this time (50% or more) is for thinking and discussing. This schedule, while hard, seems to be effective for publishing…

If half of the time is thinking, why do you need to be on the spot? Seems really counterproductive to me.

Being in the lab helps me focus on my thinking. I also discuss my current thinking and problems with my peers for critique, and I can do the same for them. I'm more conditioned to do research, and my mind wanders less in the lab.

However, I do agree that having free time and being away from the lab is important to get a fresh view of things.

Re: ‘A toxic culture of overwork’: The graduate student mental health crisis

#28

Post by edhu2017 » Sun, Mar 17, 2019, 7:37 AM UTC

Bombthecat wrote: post #21

asutekku wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If half of the time is thinking, why do you need to be on the spot? Seems really counterproductive to me.

He probably means planning meetings. Never understood what the purpose is to fill half the day with meetings. Beside the illusion of productivity.

We don't plan too many meetings. Once a week for a lab wide meeting. Most of these meetings are casual and just discussions between cliques of phd students on specific topics.

Re: ‘A toxic culture of overwork’: The graduate student mental health crisis

#29

Post by [deleted] » Sun, Mar 17, 2019, 7:38 AM UTC

kodz4 wrote: post #24

jacobolus wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From what I understand, successful professional athletes tend to train very hard during dedicated practice hours (something like 30 hours per week), but then have rich lives outside their training, get enough sleep every night, etc. Trying to do more than 30 hours of intense creative work per week yields diminishing returns, while leading to worse and worse negative health effects as you increase hours. People workin…

I agree. But when you are talking about Stanford you are really talking about the best of the best. Their performance curves don't match the rest of the population to start with. For example, I am just watching highlights of the Indian Wells Tennis Tourney thats going on, and a 38 year old Roger Federer has managed to get to the finals. And in every interview with the rest of the competition, they all say he is just…

[deleted]

Re: ‘A toxic culture of overwork’: The graduate student mental health crisis

#30

Post by digitalixus » Sun, Mar 17, 2019, 7:39 AM UTC

skrebbel wrote: post #15

kodz4 wrote: post #2

Meanwhile in China we have 9-9-6. The US needs to wake up to whether it wants to stay in the game.

I recognize that this is anecdata but I worked together remotely with a engineers from the Shenzhen area a number of times, and they would have a 2 hour lunch plus a 2 hour afternoon nap (under their desks, on a couch, anywhere really) every day. Working from 9 to 9 sounds less heavy (and more fun!) that way. Maybe I met some lucky few, but if my impression of Chinese tech working culture is accurate, it's less insan…

Ain't that the inconvenient truth? Countries with long working hours aren't filled with people with superhuman stamina and concentration. They just fill up the additional hours with a bunch of other stuff; in the western hemisphere, it's acting busy and spending hours on Facebook, Instagram and LinkedIn.

I'd rather work in a place with "work-life balance" (whatever the hell that is these days, 8-6?) but such places are disappearing all over the planet. Even in Europe, work-life balance can be goddamn horrible in tech, especially if you work in a startup. Unpaid overtime is common, in a recent interview at a startup of 70 employees, I was told "our official working hours are 9am-6pm but... well, we're a startup, so you know... hint hint nudge nudge".

If what places like Blind are saying is true (that pay in the east is rising to SV-like levels), China and Asian countries with "long working hours" may be viable places to work in the future, since long hours are already a norm in America and becoming the new European standard too.