25M Brits would struggle in a cashless society • Hacker News Board

Re: 25M Brits would struggle in a cashless society

#111

Post by jlokier » Sun, Mar 17, 2019, 1:30 AM UTC

frosted-flakes wrote: post #33

mschuetz wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The concept of not having your own private bank account that isn't shared with your significant other or anyone else baffles me.

Why? It baffles me that a husband and wife don't trust each other enough to pool their resources.

I'm the opposite. I can't imagine having a spouse that I trust so much that it would have zero chilling effect on my personal spending decisions if they could audit every trivial thing I spend on.

Just as importantly, I can't imagine that I would have zero chilling effect on my spouse either. So even if they preferred a joint account, I'd insist _they_ have a private account that I couldn't see as well, and that it had some liquidity in it.

It is important to me that my spouse feels as free as possible, and that they have some personal life which is just for themselves, outside of my view.

Re: 25M Brits would struggle in a cashless society

#112

Post by teddyh » Sun, Mar 17, 2019, 2:11 AM UTC

majewsky wrote: post #107

teddyh wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don’t get it – if you could just take it back whenever, it wouldn’t be “money”, now would it?

It would be money, but not cash. I can absolutely take back a Paypal transaction with buyer protection.

And, just like money is a layer built on top of cash, I assume that one could build a third-party escrow service on top of GNU Taler which has this “buyer protection” feature, with the added bonus of not one actor having a monopoly on it – whereas if Paypal stops liking you, you are out of luck.

Re: 25M Brits would struggle in a cashless society

#113

Post by xg15 » Sun, Mar 17, 2019, 2:35 AM UTC

crazygringo wrote: post #80

I would love to see a cashless society because carrying around dirty bills and heavy coins is just a nuisance, and adds real overhead for stores as well... ... BUT , for privacy and the unbanked, I suspect this necessarily needs to go along with credit-card-compatible "cash cards" that would have to be: 1) Anonymous (e.g. buy a card for $1 from any drugstore, swap them with friends, buy in bulk and give away, whateve…

A side effect would be that the three points taken together would effectively make the cards a new form of cash.

As in, if people decide to simply exchange the physical cards instead of charging/discharging them, the cards effectively become a plain old traditional currency.

Re: 25M Brits would struggle in a cashless society

#114

Post by xg15 » Sun, Mar 17, 2019, 2:43 AM UTC

jdietrich wrote: post #22

sbacic wrote: post #4

I've recently visited London for the first time. What really stunned me was the huge number of homeless people. They were practically everywhere. And they all relied on cash donations. I wonder what will happen to these people as society becomes more and more cashless? What effect will it have on crime?

Begging is a controversial issue in the UK. Our welfare system is far from perfect (and it has been substantially denuded by the current Conservative government) but there are relatively few people who need to beg to survive - primarily non-UK nationals with no recourse to public funds. The consensus view among charities who work with the homeless is that a) most beggars aren't rough sleepers, b) most rough sleepers…

That may be true - but on the other hand, losing access to money doesn't seem to be helping them either. Like, even if the opinions are true, the fraction of people that beg to buy actual food or try to improve their situation wouldn't be able to do that anymore either.

I can't imagine that this move would be particularly helpful for people with addiction either. Their addiction won't go away, but they'd probably find other ways to fund it, which might involve entering into really unfortunate power dynamics.

Re: 25M Brits would struggle in a cashless society

#115

Post by Nextgrid » Sun, Mar 17, 2019, 2:56 AM UTC

joncp wrote: post #82

crazygringo wrote: post #80

I would love to see a cashless society because carrying around dirty bills and heavy coins is just a nuisance, and adds real overhead for stores as well... ... BUT , for privacy and the unbanked, I suspect this necessarily needs to go along with credit-card-compatible "cash cards" that would have to be: 1) Anonymous (e.g. buy a card for $1 from any drugstore, swap them with friends, buy in bulk and give away, whateve…

> For whatever reason, I rarely see the idea of anonymous cash cards discussed in these types of conversations. Because it's really really hard to prevent forgery. Maybe impossible.

It's impossible to prevent forgery just like physical cash, but it's definitely a lot harder to crack a properly designed cryptosystem than make a counterfeit note.

Re: 25M Brits would struggle in a cashless society

#116

Post by hakfoo » Sun, Mar 17, 2019, 2:56 AM UTC

def_true_false wrote: post #87

crazygringo wrote: post #80

I would love to see a cashless society because carrying around dirty bills and heavy coins is just a nuisance, and adds real overhead for stores as well... ... BUT , for privacy and the unbanked, I suspect this necessarily needs to go along with credit-card-compatible "cash cards" that would have to be: 1) Anonymous (e.g. buy a card for $1 from any drugstore, swap them with friends, buy in bulk and give away, whateve…

Anonymous prepaid cards are a thing, very useful for e.g. people with debt problems.

A prepaid card isn't "self-hosted". They're just front end for a bank account that can be closed or restricted by external forces.

The right people in law enforcement could probably make a few calls and shut down an arbitrary prepaid card (or group of them). There's also a strong paper trail that can be used for that-- they could reasonably say "any card that was used at this suspicious merchant should be shut down".

They can't demonetize a few random $100 notes with anywhere near the same degree of ease or specificity. Nor does the logging infrastructure exist to find every note which touched a suspicious individual.

Re: 25M Brits would struggle in a cashless society

#117

Post by Nextgrid » Sun, Mar 17, 2019, 2:58 AM UTC

crooked-v wrote: post #99

crazygringo wrote: post #80

I would love to see a cashless society because carrying around dirty bills and heavy coins is just a nuisance, and adds real overhead for stores as well... ... BUT , for privacy and the unbanked, I suspect this necessarily needs to go along with credit-card-compatible "cash cards" that would have to be: 1) Anonymous (e.g. buy a card for $1 from any drugstore, swap them with friends, buy in bulk and give away, whateve…

> Secure and robust > value stored on-card These two things don't go together.

It could work as a sort of cryptocurrency. Cryptocurrencies are functionally equivalent to "stored value" and yet they remain secure.

Plus, since we're talking about a government-issued currency, a lot of the drawbacks of a typical cryptocurrency wouldn't apply (the government can be considered the central source of trust, so no need for a proof of work system or anything).

Re: 25M Brits would struggle in a cashless society

#118

Post by Nextgrid » Sun, Mar 17, 2019, 3:05 AM UTC

awakeasleep wrote: post #11

cascom wrote: post #2

The implications of a cashless society on privacy are terrifying

The implications on life for the poor are terrifying! Businesses would love to be able to exclude people too poor to use their services from society- It's a real ugly situation. Like a decentralized apartheid based on financial status. Without the government stepping in and trying to prevent this discrimination, there is no one to stand up for these human being's lives

> Businesses would love to be able to exclude people too poor to use their services from society

How would that work, and what's the incentive for it?

People who can't afford a business' service are already excluded from it by definition, regardless of payment method. For those who can afford it, what's the incentive for the business to turn them away and not profit off them?

Re: 25M Brits would struggle in a cashless society

#119

Post by theamk » Sun, Mar 17, 2019, 3:13 AM UTC

userbinator wrote: post #59

sametmax wrote: post #47

Another problem is that no society is perfect. And even if it were, it won't stay that way. There is a need for a small grey area in any system to stay sane, where people can workaround the limitations of said system. Yes, it will be abused, and also used for nefarious purposes. But it's better than the alternative. You need people to sometimes be able to do things the state doesn't approve. You need children to be a…

There is a need for a small grey area in any system to stay sane, where people can workaround the limitations of said system. There is a similar analogy to what is happening in the computing world, and I've heard it called "the insecurity that gives us freedom." I agree.

Where did you hear this from? When I google search for this phrase, I only see your Hacker News comments.

Re: 25M Brits would struggle in a cashless society

#120

Post by toast0 » Sun, Mar 17, 2019, 3:37 AM UTC

anoncoward111 wrote: post #86

toast0 wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If they're paying you 1% APY on deposits now, they're not losing money. The going rate rate on deposits these days is a little over 2%.

I agree, but what I think I mean is, whatever theyre making on my direct deposit (probably $10 a month in fees to my employer) is less than the 0.83% of xx,xxx in my checking :) I would surely love 2% on my checking though! I thought 2% was on cash back, I will need to search for 2% checking with no restrictions somewhere

I think I see where you're going about the fees from your business. I agree, there's really not a lot of income directly generated, but a checking/savings account doesn't generate a lot of costs either. My understanding is it your credit union originates and services loans, that can be a pretty significant interest generator.

My credit union will give you 2% in checking if you meet all of these:

10 debit or credit card purchases per month

enroll in and maintain eStatements, eNotices, eTax & eCoupons for your accounts and loans

$300 minimum monthly ACH credit transaction or $5000 in deposit or loan balances

Previously, they required 10 debit card transactions per month, and I'm not sure I've made that many in my life. I'm going to check a bit closer on this, thanks. Credit union is StarOne.