Americans Are Going Bankrupt from Getting Sick • Hacker News Board

Re: Americans Are Going Bankrupt from Getting Sick

#21

Post by superpermutat0r » Sat, Mar 16, 2019, 7:12 PM UTC

tapland wrote: post #5

Don't fall for the 'yes, but countries that have cheap healthcare pay for it with taxes'. The US pays more than most from taxes[0]. In Sweden we pay less per capita than americans do (from taxes) and my total _maximum_ healthcare costs for _all_ treatments, medications, surgury etc, that in the US would be paid by your employer or yourself are: $125/year max for all visits and procedures [1] + $250/year max for all p…

Absolutely, public spending on healthcare in USA is enormous. Higher than military budget. USA is unfortunately country where enormous amounts of people are sick. Mostly side effects of obesityand lack of physical activity.

Re: Americans Are Going Bankrupt from Getting Sick

#22

Post by tapland » Sat, Mar 16, 2019, 7:12 PM UTC

enraged_camel wrote: post #12

tapland wrote: post #5

Don't fall for the 'yes, but countries that have cheap healthcare pay for it with taxes'. The US pays more than most from taxes[0]. In Sweden we pay less per capita than americans do (from taxes) and my total _maximum_ healthcare costs for _all_ treatments, medications, surgury etc, that in the US would be paid by your employer or yourself are: $125/year max for all visits and procedures [1] + $250/year max for all p…

>>Don't fall for the 'yes, but countries that have cheap healthcare pay for it with taxes'. The US pays more than most from taxes[0]. Americans don't actually have an objection to paying more for healthcare. What they do have an objection to is paying for other people's healthcare. America is a deeply individualistic society, and the idea of one's tax dollars being spent to benefit others lies at the root of most peo…

And you do have a system where you pay more than anyone else for the pleasure of poor people dying. Harshly worded but that is already solved, and somehow I don't see people being happy with it.

I think it's pretty clear that taxes per capita to healthcare being third highest in the world isn't common knowledge.

Re: Americans Are Going Bankrupt from Getting Sick

#23

Post by patricklorio » Sat, Mar 16, 2019, 7:13 PM UTC

tapland wrote: post #7

i_am_proteus wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Interesting logical jump from "medical facilities overcharge" to "we desperately need single-payer healthcare in this country." Single payer is certainly one possible solution, but it's not the only feasible solution, despite conclusions that availability bias might lead us to. I'm curious: what was the final price after insurance negotiated on your behalf?

You need single payer because you can overcharge anyone who can't negotiate lower rates (i.e. individuals who's personal business with the healthcare system doesn't have much if any effect on it). Compare that to a state bargaining on behalf of 10+ million customers.

I'm not sure the government can do a good job negotiating on behalf of its citizens. It doesn't work well for student loans (blind checks that increases tuition) [1], California's power cost (rate set with gov cooperation) [2], or even Medicare [3].

I think we need to fix several more issues before single payer would be a suitable option.

[1] https://www.forbes.com/sites/prestoncooper2/2017/02/22/how-u... [2] http://www.cpuc.ca.gov/electricrates/ [3] https://www.reuters.com/article/us-column-miller-medicare/re...

Re: Americans Are Going Bankrupt from Getting Sick

#24

Post by bellerose » Sat, Mar 16, 2019, 7:13 PM UTC

I met a guy at university who suffered a car crash and where he wasn't at fault. Guy spent a month in a hospital bed and now has trouble walking. Owes 50k+ in medical bills and doesn't want to declare bankruptcy. He was in CS so he will probably survive but I just feel it's completely unnecessary that he suffer the added stress in life of owing finances for medical treatment. Specifically when he had no control over the accident and is in no way to blame. I left America for Canada because morally the country makes me sick.

Re: Americans Are Going Bankrupt from Getting Sick

#25

Post by rpedela » Sat, Mar 16, 2019, 7:14 PM UTC

tapland wrote: post #7

i_am_proteus wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Interesting logical jump from "medical facilities overcharge" to "we desperately need single-payer healthcare in this country." Single payer is certainly one possible solution, but it's not the only feasible solution, despite conclusions that availability bias might lead us to. I'm curious: what was the final price after insurance negotiated on your behalf?

You need single payer because you can overcharge anyone who can't negotiate lower rates (i.e. individuals who's personal business with the healthcare system doesn't have much if any effect on it). Compare that to a state bargaining on behalf of 10+ million customers.

The single payer solution assumes the status quo is the only possible way healthcare can be priced. However prices for the same procedure can vary wildly depending on the provider in the same area in US. In all other areas of commerce, prices tend to be comparable among competitors especially within the same geographic area. So why is healthcare the only industry that doesn't act like that?

I honestly don't know, but I think part of the problem is a lack of price transparency. People cannot shop for the best prices for non-urgent procedures, etc. I bet price transparency would at least help stabilize the prices across providers. Is that enough to solve the problem completely? Doubtful, but it would be a start.

Re: Americans Are Going Bankrupt from Getting Sick

#26

Post by WrtCdEvrydy » Sat, Mar 16, 2019, 7:14 PM UTC

raesene9 wrote: post #19

enraged_camel wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>>Don't fall for the 'yes, but countries that have cheap healthcare pay for it with taxes'. The US pays more than most from taxes[0]. Americans don't actually have an objection to paying more for healthcare. What they do have an objection to is paying for other people's healthcare. America is a deeply individualistic society, and the idea of one's tax dollars being spent to benefit others lies at the root of most peo…

It's interesting you say that, I've heard that line of argument before but it is quite puzzling. Are you suggesting that a person on Low income in the US doesn't object to paying more than they have for their own healthcare (i.e. that they wouldn't like that healthcare to be cheaper) That seems a bit counter-intuitive, as usually people don't like being bankrupt.

Americans believe that only poor people get bankrupt... then they get cancer.

It's hard to swallow an increase on taxes when you're healthy and think you will never get sick.

Re: Americans Are Going Bankrupt from Getting Sick

#27

Post by newnewpdro » Sat, Mar 16, 2019, 7:14 PM UTC

enraged_camel wrote: post #2

I accidentally stabbed myself in the finger while cutting open a package using a knife. Stupid, I know. The would was small, maybe 1 centimeter, but deep enough that it wouldn't stop bleeding on its own. My girlfriend insisted we go to the ER (urgent cares around here are closed on Sundays), so we did. I was the only one there that day. I was ushered in to see a doctor. The doctor looked at the wound, and said, "this…

If I went to the ER every time my girlfriends insisted on it I'd be much poorer today, and no more alive or healthier for it.

Re: Americans Are Going Bankrupt from Getting Sick

#28

Post by colanderman » Sat, Mar 16, 2019, 7:15 PM UTC

i_am_proteus wrote: post #10

tapland wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You need single payer because you can overcharge anyone who can't negotiate lower rates (i.e. individuals who's personal business with the healthcare system doesn't have much if any effect on it). Compare that to a state bargaining on behalf of 10+ million customers.

Cf. the insurance company negotiating on the above poster's behalf, and my curiosity about the result of those negotiations.

That's if you have insurance, which - surprise - is only reasonably priced if you are part of a group (e.g. employer) which can negotiate on your behalf.

Re: Americans Are Going Bankrupt from Getting Sick

#29

Post by chrisco255 » Sat, Mar 16, 2019, 7:15 PM UTC

enraged_camel wrote: post #2

I accidentally stabbed myself in the finger while cutting open a package using a knife. Stupid, I know. The would was small, maybe 1 centimeter, but deep enough that it wouldn't stop bleeding on its own. My girlfriend insisted we go to the ER (urgent cares around here are closed on Sundays), so we did. I was the only one there that day. I was ushered in to see a doctor. The doctor looked at the wound, and said, "this…

The pricing for medical bills is always insane but hospitals routinely take much less. I don't know the purpose of these "shock bills" that are never actually the real price. But I've seen the actual price paid be as low as 5-10% of these insane bills.

Re: Americans Are Going Bankrupt from Getting Sick

#30

Post by Waterluvian » Sat, Mar 16, 2019, 7:16 PM UTC

enraged_camel wrote: post #2

I accidentally stabbed myself in the finger while cutting open a package using a knife. Stupid, I know. The would was small, maybe 1 centimeter, but deep enough that it wouldn't stop bleeding on its own. My girlfriend insisted we go to the ER (urgent cares around here are closed on Sundays), so we did. I was the only one there that day. I was ushered in to see a doctor. The doctor looked at the wound, and said, "this…

I sliced a banana peel of skin off my finger on glass by accident. 3 hours of various stages of waiting rooms after triage and I had been x-rayed and sewn up and sent home.

Cost me $8 in parking a $2 in Tim Hortons coffee.

I felt an immense level of pride in the taxes I pay (43% income tax before deductions) when it clicked that anyone who walked in would have gotten this same service.