Android Q will kill clipboard manager apps in the name of privacy • Hacker News Board

Re: Android Q will kill clipboard manager apps in the name of privacy

#21

Post by deogeo » Sat, Mar 16, 2019, 6:09 PM UTC

skybrian wrote: post #20

deogeo wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

1.) Disputed by Google as 'misleading'. 2.) Try this link then: https://apnews.com/828aefab64d4411bac257a07c1af0ecb (note that these studies don't cover the UI dark patterns encouraging you to give up your privacy 'willingly') 3.) Are we really going to pretend Google's spying is such a fringe idea that it needs a citation to be believed, and not their main business model?

The problem with this sort of argument is that I struggle to understand how people are actually harmed. It seems like people assume that Google is harming people, somehow, but it's not spelled out. (It seems like collecting information, alone, shouldn't count as harm? It needs to be used for some bad purpose or disclosed to harm anyone.)

So now the goal has moved from proving Google is spying, to showing how that spying is harmful? But okay, lets go with it.

First of all, the information is disclosed immediately - to Google. Then it's just a matter of how much more disclosed is gets.

Surveillance has been shown to chill expression (https://www.cjfe.org/how_mass_surveillance_harms_societies_a..., https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2016/05/when-surveillance-chil...), and even just metadata can be used to easily find whistleblowers (https://www.abc.net.au/triplej/programs/hack/how-team-of-pre...).

Will Google now or in the future offer services to help "secure corporate IP" by finding whistleblowers? Is it wise to assume they won't? Keep in mind all the information they gather now will be kept for when they want to misuse it later. What if they get served with a warrant for that information? Such as by a government agency that's helping to quash unions (https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-43507728)? How certain are you that there's no company that, now or in the future, will offer services to employers to help identify employees with corporate-unfriendly political beliefs?

Then there is the simple fact that information is power, and used to amass even more power, such as when Facebook used data gathered by Onavo to decide which apps to acquire (https://www.fool.com/investing/2018/12/05/facebooks-onavo-sp...). So spying directly helps corporate giants maintain their monopolies.

And all of that harm is without an authoritarian government in place. What about countries that aren't so lucky as to have a mostly freedom-respecting government? How sure are you your own country won't join them in the next ~50 years?

Surveillance is a leash and collar around your neck - just because it's long enough now, doesn't mean you should wait to get it off.

Re: Android Q will kill clipboard manager apps in the name of privacy

#22

Post by londons_explore » Sat, Mar 16, 2019, 6:14 PM UTC

Ultramanoid wrote: post #18

chopin wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In which Android version Internet needs permission? Mine (7.1.1) does not have such a setting.

Applications require permissions to run. Many require internet permission although it makes no sense. For instance all Google keyboards have internet permission. And most others. That something that can record and transmit every single thing one types has that permission, to me, seems insane and I certainly will use only keyboards that do not have such asinine requirement. Edit : https://fixitalready.eff.org/android/…

Even without Internet permission there are easy ways to exfiltrate critical data.

For example, the app could just open the browser set to http://myapp.com/?secretdata=Ultramanoids_password

How are you going to stop that? Have the browser stop and ask before loading the web page?

Re: Android Q will kill clipboard manager apps in the name of privacy

#23

Post by skybrian » Sat, Mar 16, 2019, 6:39 PM UTC

deogeo wrote: post #21

skybrian wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem with this sort of argument is that I struggle to understand how people are actually harmed. It seems like people assume that Google is harming people, somehow, but it's not spelled out. (It seems like collecting information, alone, shouldn't count as harm? It needs to be used for some bad purpose or disclosed to harm anyone.)

So now the goal has moved from proving Google is spying, to showing how that spying is harmful? But okay, lets go with it. First of all, the information is disclosed immediately - to Google. Then it's just a matter of how much more disclosed is gets. Surveillance has been shown to chill expression ( https://www.cjfe.org/how_mass_surveillance_harms_societies_a... , https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2016/05/when-surveillan…

None of these links are about anything Google did. I understand how many of the things Facebook have done have harmed people, and how governments can harm people, but these things seem not to apply to Google?

I'm not into guilt by association.

Re: Android Q will kill clipboard manager apps in the name of privacy

#24

Post by Klathmon » Sat, Mar 16, 2019, 6:41 PM UTC

Ultramanoid wrote: post #11

jeswin wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd bet that less than 0.1% of users use a custom clipboard. Android's primary focus should be to make the OS secure for the nontechnical majority. These are people who don't understand permissions, and will click on app installer popups. IMHO this is a welcome move. An alternative would have been to deny all network access to clipboard apps - thereby ensuring that they are not able to steal any data.

According to numbers of downloads of clipboard managers, it's probably much higher than that. But the reasoning doesn't stand. Like I said, they could remove all phony Chrome clones with massive analytics and calls home, of which there are dozens, with read and write storage permissions, internet permission, etc, the list goes on and on. And say only Chrome is allowed, or vetted browsers from known vendors, like Mozi…

I'm sorry, but I think even saying 0.1% of users use a clipboard manager is way overestimating it.

The top clipboard manager apps have like 500k installs. Android had 2.7 billion users in 2017. If we assume that the Android install base hasn't grown and that the total base of clipboard managers is 10x larger, we still only get to 0.18% of users...

Re: Android Q will kill clipboard manager apps in the name of privacy

#25

Post by chopin » Sat, Mar 16, 2019, 7:04 PM UTC

Ultramanoid wrote: post #18

chopin wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In which Android version Internet needs permission? Mine (7.1.1) does not have such a setting.

Applications require permissions to run. Many require internet permission although it makes no sense. For instance all Google keyboards have internet permission. And most others. That something that can record and transmit every single thing one types has that permission, to me, seems insane and I certainly will use only keyboards that do not have such asinine requirement. Edit : https://fixitalready.eff.org/android/…

Looked up, thanks. Seems you can't grant or revoke that permission. I don't understand why having it at all if you cannot change it.

Re: Android Q will kill clipboard manager apps in the name of privacy

#26

Post by chopin » Sat, Mar 16, 2019, 7:07 PM UTC

londons_explore wrote: post #22

Ultramanoid wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Applications require permissions to run. Many require internet permission although it makes no sense. For instance all Google keyboards have internet permission. And most others. That something that can record and transmit every single thing one types has that permission, to me, seems insane and I certainly will use only keyboards that do not have such asinine requirement. Edit : https://fixitalready.eff.org/android/…

Even without Internet permission there are easy ways to exfiltrate critical data. For example, the app could just open the browser set to http://myapp.com/?secretdata=Ultramanoids_password How are you going to stop that? Have the browser stop and ask before loading the web page?

Wouldn't that be visible?

Re: Android Q will kill clipboard manager apps in the name of privacy

#27

Post by deogeo » Sat, Mar 16, 2019, 7:08 PM UTC

skybrian wrote: post #23

deogeo wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So now the goal has moved from proving Google is spying, to showing how that spying is harmful? But okay, lets go with it. First of all, the information is disclosed immediately - to Google. Then it's just a matter of how much more disclosed is gets. Surveillance has been shown to chill expression ( https://www.cjfe.org/how_mass_surveillance_harms_societies_a... , https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2016/05/when-surveillan…

None of these links are about anything Google did. I understand how many of the things Facebook have done have harmed people, and how governments can harm people, but these things seem not to apply to Google? I'm not into guilt by association.

> these things seem not to apply to Google?

So first show that Google spies, then show that spying is harmful, then show that Google's spying has done specific harms? You sure have high standards.

Now could you explain how the risks and dangers of surveillance don't apply to the surveillance done by Google? Are they somehow immune to government warrants? Are you privy to all of their business decisions, to know that they never abused their vast access to data to enrich themselves at the expense of others? Should we keep handing over all our data to them, and just hope that they'll stay benevolent indefinitely?

It looks to me like you don't want to understand.

Re: Android Q will kill clipboard manager apps in the name of privacy

#28

Post by chopin » Sat, Mar 16, 2019, 7:09 PM UTC

Ultramanoid wrote: post #18

chopin wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In which Android version Internet needs permission? Mine (7.1.1) does not have such a setting.

Applications require permissions to run. Many require internet permission although it makes no sense. For instance all Google keyboards have internet permission. And most others. That something that can record and transmit every single thing one types has that permission, to me, seems insane and I certainly will use only keyboards that do not have such asinine requirement. Edit : https://fixitalready.eff.org/android/…

Amy keyboards you could recommend? Ideally available on f-droid.

Re: Android Q will kill clipboard manager apps in the name of privacy

#29

Post by fancyfantasy » Sat, Mar 16, 2019, 7:32 PM UTC

skybrian wrote: post #23

deogeo wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So now the goal has moved from proving Google is spying, to showing how that spying is harmful? But okay, lets go with it. First of all, the information is disclosed immediately - to Google. Then it's just a matter of how much more disclosed is gets. Surveillance has been shown to chill expression ( https://www.cjfe.org/how_mass_surveillance_harms_societies_a... , https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2016/05/when-surveillan…

None of these links are about anything Google did. I understand how many of the things Facebook have done have harmed people, and how governments can harm people, but these things seem not to apply to Google? I'm not into guilt by association.

what about the UI patterns? any word in defense...

counselor...

I have noticed the annoying(to say the least) habit of everytime I click on a video on youtube on Android...the fucking youtube native app pop-up a fuck window to ask If I dont fucking prefer to watch the video on the native app...

so...´do no evil` , righ,

wery well...

Lol!

want more? they ask your phone number right now, and they write in size 0.2 font hidden down there , your freewill option to Fucking ´skip` giving them your personal phone number...

the acropole is yours, Counselor

in my opinion...

Your Honor

thanks...

Re: Android Q will kill clipboard manager apps in the name of privacy

#30

Post by scarface74 » Sat, Mar 16, 2019, 7:33 PM UTC

ignoramous wrote: post #10

NeedMoreTea wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It seems like Google deliberately misses the point in all privacy related changes. It's not in their interest to do it properly after all. It seems like the standard pattern for Android. Privacy, well the sorry state of, is why I switched to Apple 2 years ago. There's some pressure to resolve privacy issues so Google changes (breaks) something minor. Something that in no way impacts the top 10 of privacy and tracking…

> It seems like Google deliberately misses the point in all privacy related changes Harsh considering the fact that Google has been dedicating resources to privacy and took important steps to that affect with Android O [0] and Android P [1] and now with Android Q. They hosted a invite-only-industry-experts conference to understand the implications of wide-spread security and privacy issues with Android [2][3]. [0] ht…

Doesn’t it seem strange that they needed to hire “industry experts” 10 years into Android’s existence instead of thinking in these terms from day one?